Demonic Possession and Borderline Personality Disorder?
I wish that author of this article was kidding, but she’s not. She appears to be a devout Catholic, which is fine with me, but comparing Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) to demonic possession? I’m sorry, but I can’t let this article go unanswered. She clearly knows little of the dynamics of BPD. I have no idea why she decided to write this article or how she has any knowledge of BPD. OK, before I start, I just want to note that I am not criticizing religion or Christianity or Catholicism. Please don’t bombard me with that kind of email and comments. I am looking at the text of a specific article to try and understand what happens when you look at BPD as a spiritual struggle of good vs evil.
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So here goes:
She says:
Dealing with Borderlines is like a spiritual warfare.
It is? How so? The remainder of the article doesn’t really answer that question.
She says:
What strange traits does a Borderline have that look like demon possession? Low, rasping moans and screams were escaping her mouth, which brought chills down your spine. You looked at her face and saw dark coal eyes, and as the moment intensified, her eyes turned red. Her transformation let you step back as you heard her laughing like a witch. She cursed and cussed you. Her stern voice turned to the most hideous sound you could imagine. In front of you was a woman with a pure-red face spitting anger and rage. It was scary.
Who is “you” in this? The woman’s husband? Where did this come from? “Low, rasping moans and screams”? I’m not sure where this incident comes from or who it is attributed to. I have certainly been the subject of rages in my years as a Non-BP, but this?
She says:
This scene is common among people with relationships with a person who has Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD).
It is? How does she know? From where does she gain such knowledge. Is it common among people she knows or what? I have been running an Internet List for Non-BP’s for almost three years now. I have found that this type of experience occurs sometimes within a Non-BP/BP relationship, but common? Hmmm….
She says:
“Life is hell” described literally by NONs or non-borderlines, a person who does not have BPD but has a loved one with BPD.
And yes, that is true. Life can seem like hell for Non-BPs (and BPs alike). My question is: From whom did she get this knowledge?
She says:
According to BorderlineCentral.com, Borderline Personality Disorder is a “real, diagnosable psychiatric disorder, and its criteria are listed in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-IV) published by the American Psychiatric Association.” There has been a stigma in the past for personality disorders such as BPD as a form of demonic possession. Up until the 19th century, personality disorders such as BPD began to take the form of “hysteria” in psychiatry.
OK, so it is a “real, diagnosable psychiatric disorder,” right? And that “there has been a stigma in the past for personality disorders such as BPD as a form of demonic possession.” So, let’s perpetuate that stigma, shall we? I mean, in one sentence she cites a source saying that BPD is a psychiatric disorder and in the next she mentions that in the past there has been a stigma of demonic possession? Where is the rational line of thought here?
She says:
Many articles have emerged on a possible link between demon possession and Borderline Personality Disorder.
Many articles? In respected journals or no? By BPD experts or no? Where are these articles?
She says:
Christopher H. Rosik in his article from the Journal of Psychology and Theology stated that “They have altered personalities and often exhibit behaviors that appear identical to traditional descriptions of possession: evil-appearing glares, angry voices, self-hatred, self-harm, aversion to God and religion, and other symptoms.”
Alright, I’ve got about 20 problems with this. First of all Christopher Rosik, Ph. D. was a past president of the “Christian Association for Psychological Studies” (see http://www.capswest.org/new/boardpage.asp). He participated as a psychologist in a forum entitled ” Critical Issues in the Dissociative Disorders Field: Six Perspectives from Religiously Sensitive Practitioners” and authored the transcript and review of a compilation of the study (see this link). He consistently publishes in the “Journal of Psychology and Theology” which is not a main-line psychological journal. It is one dedicated to the following purpose:
Purpose
The purpose of the Journal of Psychology and Theology is to communicate recent scholarly thinking on the interrelationships of psychological and theological concepts, and to consider the application of these concepts to a variety of professional settings. The major intent of the editor is to place before the evangelical community articles that have bearing on the nature of humankind from a biblical perspective. (see https://wisdom.biola.edu/jpt/about.cfm)
So, there’s the source with which I have an initial problem.
Then there’s the content of the quote. He states:
…appear identical to traditional descriptions of possession: evil-appearing glares, angry voices, self-hatred, self-harm, aversion to God and religion….
“Traditional descriptions of possession?” Perhaps those “traditional descriptions” were not describing possession at all, but were instead describing a psychiatric disorder as mentioned above? By “linking” traditional descriptions of possession and behaviors that are sometimes included in BPD, he tries to create validity for traditional descriptions of possession that is just not there. I could do the same thing with any “traditional description” of behavior that has been attributed to a believed cause in the past. In Salem, during the witch hysteria, we could call these people witches, correct? Does that lend any credence whatsoever to the fact that they are or are not witches?
Now, the behaviors he describes:
evil-appearing glares…
Evil to whom?
…aversion to God and religion…
Wait a minute here. I have found that many BPs (though certainly not all) have an attachment to religion, particularly to the fundamentalist Christian faith. There are at least five to ten examples that I could cite from my Internet List of extremely devout Christian BPs. In some senses, they seem to be drawn to the idea of judgment of themselves and others and strict religious views actually reinforce the sense of judgment. They find themselves and others to be all good (in God’s graces) or all evil (in the hands of the devil). This is a function of black-and-white thinking, not temporary demonic possession.
The author of this article goes on to cite a case of an ex-husband (of course an ex) whose ex-wife had “borderline personality disorder.” I put it in quotes because I don’t know if this woman was diagnosed. The author describes some behavior that might indicate BPD – jealously, emptiness, rage, manipulation, etc. – but we don’t know if the ex-husband is reporting all this truthfully and, if he is, whether the condition is another disorder. Let’s assume the ex-wife does have BPD. Some of the language used to describe her behavior is clearly judgmental such as:
With children she can use as pawns, Renee became a very manipulative person.
To get what she wants, Renee snatched her children out-of-state to pressure Patrick to her whims. Patrick was hesitant to marry her.
She would wait all day counting the minutes until he returns home and gives him a guilt trip for her feelings of emptiness.
To free herself from the shame and guilt of her decision, she brainwashed the children on the evils of their faith.
And some of the text doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to me:
He was now very familiar with Renee’s mood swings. It alternates with periods of intense depression.
What alternates with periods of depression? As for mood swings, yes, that is the whole nature of the disorder. Then we hear that the ex-wife:
She dabbled into wicca, tarot cards, new age and psychic readings. She went to party at night and eventually found a lover 11 years her junior.
Well, if she “dabbled into wicca, tarot cards, new age and psychic readings” she must be possessed huh? And how does finding a lover 11 years her junior go into the same paragraph as “dabbling” in those things? Are they equivalent?
Now we get a real kicker:
The children have not been going to their church for a long time after the couple’s separation. So Patrick brought a holy “host” from the Catholic Church so the older children can receive Holy Communion. In the Catholic Church, Holy Communion is actually receiving “Jesus Christ” and is held with much reverence. Upon seeing this, Renee burst into an uncontrollable anger. She screamed like a possessed woman and ran to the hosts. She grabbed them, threw them on the floor and stamped her feet hoping to crush the host into pieces. This act is considered “sacrilegious” in the Catholic Church and may be considered comparable to a demonic possession.
So, the wife doesn’t want the religion of her ex-husband in her house. Her impulsive and out-of-portion reaction is typical of emotional dysregulation. However, according to the author she “screamed like a possessed woman” (again, like a possessed woman to whom?). Then she committed a sacrilegious (in quotes for some unknown reason) act – one that the Catholic Church “may consider comparable to demonic possession.” OK, well… if the Catholic Church “may” consider it “comparable to demonic possession,” is it an indication of possession or not? And, again, what authority does the Catholic Church have in the area of psychiatric disorders? Either it’s a psychiatric disorder or it is possession, right? Or could it be both? Clearly, the author is exposing her own biases toward the beliefs of the Catholic Church, rather than an intimate knowledge of the dynamic underpinnings of BPD.
She goes on to say:
The once attractive spouses that enchanted NONs turn into gruesome-looking beings with glaring, black coal eyes turning red and watery.
They do? Dang, I better watch out for that transformation. I know that people with BPD can get hateful and hateful-looking when angry, but everyone gets that way when that angry. BPs have trouble regulating their emotions and emotions feed other emotions. Sure, you get a very angry person, but that is all you have, not a demonical possessed person.
She goes on:
Most NONs claim that their BPD lover’s demeanor changes abruptly. They had a sneer on their faces and acted as if they were in another dimension. They would flinch whenever Jesus Christ or God was mentioned. They would scream with the worst blasphemy one could imagine. It is surprising how many NONs experience similar mannerisms and facial expressions from their Borderline loved ones.
“Most” NONs? From which source does she get that data? How many NONs has she talked with? I have talked with literally hundreds, in-person and online, and, while they are clearly exasperated by their BPs behavior, I’m not sure how “it is surprising how many NONs experience similar mannerisms…” is being backed up here. If someone is angry, sure, they will have certain facial expressions and mannerisms, but that is true of anyone, not just BPs. The key is what to do about it.
Oh and as for BPs that “flinch whenever Jesus Christ or God was mentioned” – that has not been my experience. Where did she get that? As I have said several BPs I know use Jesus or God to judge others and themselves. The idea that there can be an ultimate decider of good and evil can be very attractive to someone with BPD.
OK, some more:
Demon possession in itself is a taboo subject. But for non-Christians, the evils of Borderlines must have another rational explanation.
Well, I suppose it is a “taboo subject” because it is hogwash. Then she says, “But for non-Christians…” – why use the word “but”? To me it makes no sense. As for the “evils” that “must have another rational explanation” – uh, yeah, it is called a psychiatric disorder that involves dsyregulation is several areas. The foremost of these areas are emotional dysregulation, impulsiveness and shame. I wonder if telling someone with a psychiatric disorder that they might have difficulty controlling without medication and therapy that they are possessed by demonic forces might cause more shame and fear in them. Hmmm? Maybe we need to start calling people with cancer sinners that deserve what they get. I’m sure most tumors, genetic diseases, mental disorders, malformations and skin rashes all have a spiritual dimension. Perhaps it is the sins of the fathers being visited upon the children?
And yet more:
However, they do not deny how a Borderline’s presence exhibits darkness, lies, betrayal, greed, addiction, abuse, pride, control, manipulation, hatred and rebellion. All are elements of spiritual bondage yielding sin.
Great. I can’t think of anything more invalidating to a person with an emotional disorder to compare their state with demonic possession. I mean, think about it. Let’s suppose you are angry at something and your NON says, “Well, the reason that you feel this way and act this way is that you are possessed with a demon.” That’s worst than, “You’re crazy” is it not? Or maybe it can get the BP out of some blame for his or her actions. After all, if the devil made you do it….
The point is this woman is being extremely invalidating to the BPs whatever her point and conclusion. That sort of invalidation is something that has contributed to the disorder all a BP’s life. Calling a person with BPD a “possessed” person is extremely invalidating to the person’s emotional responses. And, what if the borderline is your child? The author seems only to be addressing “BP lovers” here, but if your child is borderline, is she also “possessed”?
She then says:
Patrick did his best to get help for Renee. Patrick sought the help of his spiritual director in the hope of finding answers to his predicament.
Well, I’m not sure that Patrick “did his best to get help” for his Ex. The author certainly doesn’t convince me he did his best. First of all, you can’t “get help” for another person. I’m sorry but that just upsets a person with BPD. If you are saying essentially, “You need help” or “You have a mental problem” or worse “You are possessed by a demon” I don’t call that “doing one’s best.” Maybe instead of (or better in addition to) going to his spiritual advisor he could have looked into DBT and DBT family skills, Patrick could have done a little better than his best.
OK, there’s still more:
His spiritual director advised that he remain steadfast in his prayers and God will hear him. With trust in God, Patrick focused on saving his children. He taught his children to pray together and pray for their Borderline mother. One day, Renee found the children an inconvenience and decided to give custody to Patrick.
Well, I glad the praying worked for “Patrick” (not his real name). Actually, prayer is suggested by DBT as a way to help tolerate distress. I still wonder though, based on the configuration of this paragraph, whether the prayer caused Renee to find the children an “inconvenience”? I guess so.
OK, now for her conclusion:
The Borderline exhibits traits and characteristics similar to a person being possessed or oppressed.
There seems to be a major hedging here. “Possessed or oppressed?” Which is it?
It seems that possession is a fact in this author’s mind, so no need to question the actual existence of possession, right?
Now she says:
Many believe that evil preys on the weaknesses of people.
“Many?” OK, who? What does one back that statement up with? And also, evil as a spiritual force seems to be a given here.
And now we get:
Many NONs, who have successfully departed from the vicious relationship with a Borderline, swear that their Borderlines Ex have been taken over by “something”.
Of course they have “departed from the vicious relationship.” And they should be listened to? Why is it that all the ex-es rule the day when it comes to the opinions of the borderline’s behavior? How about actually educating yourself about BPD and then deciding what is actually happening? Sure, these people are taken over by “something” – it’s called strong negative emotions and it happens to everyone from time-to-time. It probably happens more often to someone with BPD, because of the nature of the disorder, not because there are demonic forces at work.
Now she says:
When we deal with evil, there is no recourse but to look at things from a spiritual dimension.
Oh really? OK, well who decided that the BP is evil, not just sick or mentally disabled, she is EVIL! And, “no recourse but to look at things from a spiritual dimension?” Says who? The author? God? True evil, if it exists and I might argue that it does in certain people (but not demonic possession, just evil and destructive thoughts and actions), can be dealt with by applying human morals, resolve and compassion. The idea that in order for evil to exist there must be a force that drives evil instead of say, mental disease, is not a leap that I am willing to take. Clearly, the author has already taken this leap in her faith and has decided that, if evil exists, then evil spiritual force also must be at work.
Now she says:
There are a few treatment options for BPD.
Well, actually, there are many treatment options for BPD and some are more effective than others. DBT, SFT and Mentalization have all been shown more effective than therapy-as-usual when it comes to BPD. The increase of acceptance + mindfulness with traditional CBT also seems to be effective in treating BPD.
And she concludes with this:
Dealing with the evil and chaos of the relationship with a Borderline can be analogous to a spiritual warfare. The spiritual warrior must seek to constantly strengthen himself in an understanding of God’s truth. As you struggle to deal with the chaos and oppression, trust God for He will lead you to the truth. He will be the only armor you’ll need for shield and protection. God’s matchless weapons are mercy and peace.
I wonder why she bothers to hedge yet again with the phrase “can be analogous to”? I mean, if spiritual forces are at work and it is a war between good and evil being fought on a spiritual dimension, then why bother? Clearly the NON is on the side of good and Godliness (if he/she “seeks to constantly strengthen himself”) and the BP is one the side of the demonic and evil forces. In her opinion as we struggle to “deal with the chaos and oppression,” trusting in God is the answer to lead you to the truth – although I am having difficulty making heads or tails of the truth in her article. Is she saying that BPD = demonic possession or BPD is like demonic possession – and, if it is the latter – why do we have to make use of our spiritual warfare stances to deal with this “evil?”
I’d like to conclude by stating two reasons that I bothered to review this article in such detail. One is that I think that comparing BPD to demonic possession merely further strengthens an “us vs. them” mentality that has already been perpetuated all over the Internet and in books for Nons. It is a basic misunderstanding of the disorder and invalidates the natural responses of the sufferer. Plus, if they believe you are against them and judge them as evil, you’re in for a whole lot of trouble. Secondly, I am not dismissing that prayer can offer solace to anyone, including the Nons. At the same time, my prescription for a Non is not to rely entirely on prayer. It is instead to learn the dynamics of the disorder and acquire the emotional skills necessary to more effectively handle a person with BPD.
Calling them possessed or evil is just going to make things much worse.
85 Comments
bpdokc
That writer is just so wrong.
Bon Dobbs
I agree totally. I think she has an agenda. Weird really. Her article about “Difficult Ex-? Consider BPD” is completely out-of-line. Hope to see you here again. I’ve looked at your site and like it a lot. Take Care.
Bon
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Deedee
I’m really glad you wrote this. This author has written several articles about BPD, and in all of them she portrays the people as evil. Not only does she think they are possessed by demons but also that they should never be given any chance in a relationship. In her article “How To Spot A Girl With Borderline Personality Disorder” she instructs “Do Not Waste Red Roses for a Borderline girlfriend” like people with BPD are somehow lesser than the rest of the population. Her degree in ECONOMICS apparently gives her expertise in the field of Psychology.
Bon Dobbs
I’m glad I wrote it too. I have read some of her articles on BPD. She seems to have a lot of anger about people with BPD (maybe it’s her new hubby’s ex-wife?). As for psychology she seems to try and use her religion as a way of managing BPD. I found this particular article to be strange in that she is saying BPD is analogous to demonic possession and then she prescribed “spiritual WARFARE” for it. Then she promised an article about spiritual warfare and never really delivers. I guess it shows that people with BPD (and smokers) are stigmatized to the point of being evil. So sad.
Joe Ember
GRAMMER CORRECTED RESPONSE! SORRY!!
BPDs are no more or less “evil” than any other human being. BPDs are confronted with issues of life, just as all human beings are. The reasons the BPD’s behaviors are often misaligned with what one would describe as normal are varied. There is a high degree of agreement on what constitutes symptoms or traits exhibited by a BPD oriented person, however.
The pain associated with watching a loved one who is entrapped in a relationship with a BPD, and the BPD does not acknowledge they have a personality disorder, may drive this person to believe that “evil” is behind the BPDs actions.
To me, any behavior that is based upon selfishness and results in a non-loving action to another human being is wrong, and the religious person, regardless of their affiliation, might view such action as sinful or evil. We must be very careful, however, to not judge, for, as human beings, we cannot see into the heart of another and see intent. Only God sees into the hearts and knows intent. All we see are actions but we do not know the fear behind a BPDs actions; whether or not they are calculated and deliberate behaviors that are designed to destroy other relationships that are important in the Non’s life, or not.
I would like to believe, but don’t know, that the BPD seeks 24×7 assurance that her/his significant other is 100% devoted and available to her/him. Whenever the Non is out of sight or contact with the BPD, it is “normal” for the BPD to suffer anxiety that swells up into fear. Fear of either being abandoned or fear of impending abandonment, runs rampant quickly with the BPD and results in obsessive behavior – calling on the phone non-stop, searching with increasing panic for the Non, and as this is unfolding, rage is building up within the BPD.
As most of us know, when we become enraged (and who hasn’t?) it is very difficult to think rationally. Why should we expect the BPD to be different? The issue, to me, is not so much why the BPD is this way (although knowing root cause certainly might help with remedy) but more importantly, what can the BPD do to move away from their fear based behavior cycle? A cycle that starts with the thought, moves to heavier and heavier self focus on what might “really” be happening, and falsely believing that unless they obtain immediate affirmation that their “loved one” is not abandoning them, they are being abandoned.
The cycle continues exponentially if the BPD does not find that affirmation quickly. The fear escalates as they fantasize they are being abandoned and rage moves in. When contact is made with their significant other the Non is emotionally assaulted, and even possibly physically abused, because of the BPD’s uncontrolled state of fear and rage.
Is this evil — NO.
Is the BPD evil —- NO.
Is the pattern of the BPD a mature, emotionally healthy way to see her/his loved one who is not available to her/him —- NO.
Is it easy for those who love the Non, to stand idly by and accept what appears to be evil and bizarre behavior that is crippling the Non — NO.
What I chose to believe is that evil is at work in this process, just as it is in all human processes when human beings must chose a course of action when relating with and to others. If we chose the higher path that is based on being kind and understanding, loving people, we chose a “good” path. If, on the other hand, we chose a path that is selfish and abusive to others we have chosen a path that is less than good. If our choice is deliberately made to inflict pain or abuse on another it is “evil for us to do so”. If our choice is based on an illness or emotionally corrupt pattern that we have come to accept as “normal” for ourselves at least, we are in error but we are not evil.
Evil, however, does exist and will rejoice whenever we chose to behave in ways that are non-loving to our neighbor. Evil, in my opinion, does have the power to influence our choices, just as Good does. But evil does not have the power to choose for us. Spiritual warfare does occur, for what else is the Christian to believe from the words, “We war not against flesh and blood but against powers and principalities we cannot see”.
So, rather than throwing rocks at the BPD what is a correct response? Only a loving response that seeks to understand the mind and heart of the suffering BPD can help the BPD recognize the crippling affect, to themselves and others, of their own behaviors, and want to overcome them.
Just like anyone who suffers from a personally challenging behavior, or even addiction, the first step to remedy begins with acknowledgement that “I have a problem and I want to be healed from it”. Without that, the afflicted person is doomed to remain in their pattern of pain and torment, and continue to inflict pain on all those in the afflicted’s life that loves them.
Prayer and more prayer are certainly powerful tools. Very important is that those who love both the Non and the BPD afflicted person, to provide a loving response. This does not mean that one must accept the BPD’s actions and not challenge their behavior. But it does mean that all those involved, not just the Non, who too often suffers silently, must reach out for the purpose of helping the BPD recognize they have a personality disorder.
The personality disorder is deep and complicated, I am sure, as it is based on how the BPD views and reacts to behaviors that are totally innocent and normal in daily life. The BPD must be brought to the place that they may be able to recognize that their behaviors are counter-productive to what they want most – a loving relationship that is based on the Non truly valuing the character and characteristics of the BPD.
Sadly, for many Nons, their continued presence in the BPD’s life is based on fear that has them in a paralyzed state of inaction. While the Non’s presence may assure the BPD they are not being abandoned, it robs the BPD of what they want most – a person who truly loves them for what they want to believe they are.
The Non further exasperates the cruelty of what the BPD suffers with, because they continue the allusion that all is “normal” AS LONG AS THE NON IS PROVIDING EXACTLY WHAT THE BPD SUFFERER EXPECTS! As soon as a behavior change occurs, even as slight as not being where one said when one said, the BPD reacts abnormally and the Non is assaulted emotionally once again.
The struggling BPD and Non MUST come to common belief that a personality disorder exists and PROFESSIONAL help MUST be sought to understand the disorder. They must seek help to know what actions MUST be taken to move away from the disorder. Without this, the BPD, the Non, and all those who are friends and family of both the BPD and Non will experience an ever deepening suffering.
anon
she may have a point.there seem to be a link between borderline personality and some type of religious experiences especially excessive charismatism/cultism and the like. in my view it seem bp is the clinical and medical explanation of possesion from the religious angle.how the 2 seem related is what i cannot explain.i have no book written on my own experinces but was in these kind of activities for a pretty long time.
i can doubt this writters interpretation but all am saying there is something in there, something hard to explain. i came to this article to try and see what others are saying regarding on what i perosnally have been observing in my own life and lives of other people that i know.
innocentbystander
My spouse has BPD with all 9 of the criteria used to diagnose the disorder. I often wonder if she is demonically possessed. She embraces every thing that is evil and perverts everythiing. I never knew true evil until I met her. I can’t get rid of her because of her scorched earth policy. The evil she does on a daily basis is beyond belief and would not fit in this forum.
You people who think they know BPD and that there is help for these people are just wrong. I surmise that you have not had to deal with a BPD person. If there is any question like “Do you think she has BPD?” then they don’t have it. True BPD’s are just plain evil. To think these people just need “a person who truly loves them for what they want to believe they are” is such hogwash.
Because they are so evil, I can’t rule out that it could be demonic possession as well.
Bon Dobbs
Dear Innocent By Stander,
It’s painful to hear all the things you have been through. Firstly, my wife has been diagnosed with BPD and one of my daughters has similar issues. You have come into contact with a very tough case of BPD. I have come into contact with hundreds of cases. Some behave in an “evil” fashion, some do not. What I like to point out is what these people have in COMMON – and IMO “evilness” is not a common feature of BPD. Sure, they can behave in a hateful and seemingly evil ways, at times, but so can others with other disorders – especially APD and NPD. What separates BPD from these disorders is the driving forces of the disorder – namely emotional dysregulation, impulsiveness and shame. Clearly, you have not read my book and it seems you have no desire to see what’s going on under the covers with your wife. You say “To think these people just need ‘a person who truly loves them for what they want to believe they are’ is such hogwash” – and in some ways I agree, not that it’s hogwash, but that that is not ALL these people need. They need to rebuild their emotional sills and coping mechanisms. I wonder what you say to someone like me who has a child with the disorder? Is my child evil? Should I completely give up on her? Should I have her exorcised? Or should I learn the skills and be certain she learns the skills to live effectively? What do you think?
Bon
DON
YOU SOUND LIKE A DEVOUT FEMINIST
DON
I HAVE VAST EXPERIENCE WITH TWO BPD WOMEN AND ONE SON THAT IS PROBABLY ONE ALSO . THE MANERISMS EXPLAINED ARE TRUE WITH THE ADDITION OF VIOLENCE ON OCCASION IF YOU DONT LET THEM WIN. I HOPE THE ANSWER IS THAT WE ALL HAVE A GOOD AND AN EVIL SIDE AND THAT BPD’S HAVE LOST CONTROL OF THEIR EVIL SIDE I HAVE EXPERIENCED THE MOST GUT WRENCHING HAPPENINGS AND STILL BELIEVE THAT IT IS PROBABLY DEMONIC POSSESSION, HOWEVER, I HOPE THAT THIS IS NOT THE CASE. I WOULD BE HAPPY TO GIVE YOU MORE DETAILS IF YOU CARE TO DISCUSS THEM.
DON
Bon Dobbs
Don,
First of all, do us all a favor and take the CAPS LOCK off – it’s just poor etiquette. Your entire messages seem to be YELLING AT ME.
Are you saying that I sound like a devout feminist? That’s just odd… I am not a devout anything, much less a feminist. I do have a wife I love and three beautiful, wonderful daughters though and I support equal treatment for them and all women. If that makes me a feminist, then… uh… I guess I am one. But devout… I think when anyone becomes devout, it depends on the definition of devout – whether one means “serious about” or “devoted to” or a connotation such as “unbending”. I believe everyone can be more effective in life with an open mind.
As to your second comment… I am a bit confused. You say you have vast experience with two BPD women and one son. That is a tough situation to be in. I personally have come into contact (both in person and online) with hundreds of people who are loved ones of those with BPD and probably 50-70 people who have the disorder. I have spent the last four years learning as much as I can about this disorder and, more importantly, what to do about it. That is, what works, what you CAN do and what you can’t. That has made all the difference in my relationships with people with BPD traits.
The concept that all people have good and evil sides and that evil has “won out” in BPD sounds a bit like “black and white” thinking that can typify BPD. Sure, we all have the capacity for good and evil, and we all have the capacity for actions and words that are neither good NOR evil – they are something else entirely.
I believe that the idea of demonic possession when it comes to BPD (or any mental illness for that matter) is a hold-over from when we had much less knowledge of the workings of the human brain, mind and human behavior. I could certainly see how someone with little knowledge of the workings of the brain and few insights into psychology (and cognitive behavior theory) and who actually believed in demons might think that the mentally ill are possessed. However, it would also seem to me that that individual was either in a primitive and superstitious society today or plucked right out of the middle ages. Calling someone a witch or demon-possessed today just seems counter-intuitive and silly.
People with BPD need support and treatment – not more stigmatizing by others in this society.
Bon
Tom
I am now dealing with a woman who has been unofficially diagnosed with BPD. I can’t tell one nut case form the next. First, she was bipolar, then she was psychothymic, now she is borderline. All I know is that she displays traits of pure hateful EVIL. I can honestly say that she is evil and her “condition” looks to me like demonic possession. She is a two-faced liar, conniving, conspiring, and has no good in her as far as I have seen. A bad air hangs over her head every where she goes. I would be rid of her for good if we didn’t have a child together. Now, do I have to worry about my son being this way too? I wouldn’t EVER have anything to do with BPD again. I am sorry for those afflicted but you all can stay the heck away from me!
Bon Dobbs
Tom,
I understand that you have been hurt by a person with BPD that has lied to you. I have discovered that BPs use “bullshit” more often than they lie. I will soon post on the difference. In MBT (Mentalization Based Therapy), they point out a “pretend mode” in which someone with BPD operates “as if” one thing is true, when, in fact, they don’t really know the truth. This mode of operation is different than actual lies and, as I said, I will explain soon. It hurts me that you have been hurt by a person with BPD. My heart goes out to you. At the same time, explaining her actions as “evil” is judgmental. She’s not evil, I suspect. I suspect she’s just been protecting her “shame fort” from discovery if you’ve gotten too close to it.
Bon
Me, the BorderLine
Hello,
I do have Borderline and it does feel as being possessed.
Trust me, I know.
I remember life before I had the problem.
Questions?
Thanks,
Anita
Bon Dobbs
Anita,
I’m sure that having BPD is a painful and upsetting situation. I can see how it might feel as if your are possessed, since you probably feel out-of-control emotionally most of the time. However, the idea of possession is an abstract one. It is a symbol of someone’s mental struggles. When someone says that they have overcome their “inner demons” typically they are talking metaphorically, not literally. Like I said, I’m sure it feels extremely unpleasant to have BPD. Yet, the idea of an actual demon is a concrete way of thinking. It is a failure to mentalize. When you say “I do have Borderline and it does feel as being possessed” you are leaving out an important word – the word “if”. That is, “it does feel ‘as if’ I am possessed.” “As if” to me is a sure sign of substituting magical thinking for abstract thinking. While it feels “as if” you are possessed, in reality you are not possessed just because it feels that you are.
Another thing that I have problems with in any comments made on this website (and others too), is when someone say “trust me”. Usually, if a person says “trust me” about something, they are not mentalizing and thinking abstractly. Instead they are convinced of their “rightness” about a particular case (yours) and have the inability to generalize to all cases. See my post on concrete thinking.
Angela Schaffner ( student)
I agree that demonic poesession is very real, however it is pretty rare.Don’t be misled when I say it is real because how would one know unless they have experienced it. My mother is paranoid Psychizophrenia, my father bi polar and depressed, oh and a druggie.I had a head injury when I was 4. Apparently no damage was done. Just recently finding out that I could be manic depressant because of the injury. I have had a rough childhood, everything from sexual abuse, physical abuse, mental abuse, and worst of all culture shock. I sometimes have rage that is so out of control I feel as if someone or something else is in control because I don’t have power to take control. So far in my life a loved one or a friend has been able to physically hold me under control. I sometime make a look that is so evil and faces that are hideous just to see how ugly I am. Some times I do things or right things I don’t really remeber much about, or what posessed me to write these things. For example a Letter to my daughter in case I die and how to always be true to herself. Where did this come from. I barely even recall writing that, but I geuss it’s good to be prepared just in case, you never know if the next day will be your last or if the present day will be your tomb.All I will say about this is I have felt a wrath of somethin so strong come over me, and this happens normally in episodes of rage toward my partner. I almost never get physical unless I have just lost my mind and without a thought Blankness takes hold and fighting to solve whatever has came over me that has made me lose control of myself. My mother hears, smells,tastes, and of course sees things that are not there. I have heard her describe these things and how horrible they are. Rapists, murderer’s dangerous species, believed to her as real. I have seen the horror in her eyes, these images so real to her.Arethey a hullucination or is it,Real Demonic Posession? I think Demonic posession seems very possible, how could a person really say this person is not posessed and they are seeing objects no one else can see. Has everyone just shoved a mental diagnosis on pschitzophrenia. I believe it is a posession not a disorder, a posession that takes over your mind and uses your body while you have no control as much as you just want to be normal and make it all go away a person suffering cant stop the the
five senses that are at play here. Could you imagine not remembering that you gave birth to your own children, something so painful, just forgotten because when asked questions it’s like talking to a zombie, a totally different person! Different Person wow now that is a strong accusation, however I have witnessed the possession. I have experience Posession of thoughts so not like my own, and actions of a completely different person. I think it makes Doctors less scared of the crazies if they can say they just have a problem with their brain, I know many people are out there with brain disfunctions that cause their disorder but what about the patients that have nothing wrong with there brain? It makes me ask a serious question, how do we seriously know that we are dealing with a disorder, What if now seriously think outside the box WHAT IF CRAZIES that are out of their mind and normally roaming around the earth in and out of homeless shelters living their life in constant hiding from images only they can see, can you even imagine how scared you would be think of how scared they could Be?
Liatris
Hello, Anita,
Thank you for your post. I really would like to hear more if you are willing to describe your experience. It must be scary. I believe my husband has BPD and although he will not go to anyone to check it out, he has heard about the diagnostic criteria a has, at times, stated that he thinks he fits it. When I told him that it seems at times that he may be possessed, he said that that is what it feels like. I have been reading about “negative attachments” from a person who I believe has had many real experiences with this and I do feel that the phenomenon is real. Robert Bruce is the author of several books on OBE (out of body experiences) and a book on psychic self defense. I believe that you would find the second book helpful – he discusses what he has found to get rid of negative energies that may be encouraging your to feel the way you do. I cannot totally say I know all he says is 100% true – but he makes a very good case and the suggestions would be helpful whether you believe it is about negative entity attachments or not.
If you come back here, I would really like to continue the discussion.
Liatris
cleo
I have been diagnosed with BPD for a few years now. I was raised in a fundamentalist Christian home. I honestly feel that it played a crucial role in my BPD pathology. I felt God to be a terrifying being, but could NEVER express this openly, because if you did you were being a “defiant and bad” christian. So I suffered in silence, and basically tried to be the perfect christian. I was constantly in spiritual crisis. A very small child believes what it is raised with, and I grew up with a deep sense of terror, secret shame, and defectiveness.
It took me a long time to come to a place of peace, and no, “God” is not in the picture. I feel much safer, sane, and balanced. Maybe I’m possessed…jk (and this is not to demean any Christians out there. It has just been my experience).
john Kane
If it walks like a duck …
Bon Dobbs
Not sure to which point you are referring to as “a duck”. BPD? or Demonic Possession?
Not Evil
Yes it does FEEL like I am possessed when I am having an episode, in the way that it feels like nothing is in my control, I am losing everything in my life and I simply do not know how to process those thoughts or feelings.
I, and other BPDs might display what can be perceived as “evil” characteristics, in that moment, but that is a part of the diagnosis/symptoms of the condition. That is usually when the “black thinking” comes about. I may look at you with hate in my eyes, but I do not hate you in my heart, I hate the fact I think you do not care about me. I may scream at the top of my lungs at you but that is only because I have never felt listened to when I talk quietly.
To say that borderlines are evil is just ridiculous. For the most of my life I am a loving, caring, compassionate being with higher morals and conscience than most “christians” I know. If I were to be so “evil”, even during an episode there would be some affiliation with the devil in my head and there never is nor ever has been, don’t you think that if the devil had possessed me he would at least try to show me that it was him doing this to me and ask me to surrender to him?
Yes, I am possessed at times, but it possession to intensified feelings of worry, fear, rejection, hopelessness, confusion, embarrassment, shame, inadequacy and frustration.
I think a lot of non-BPDs would benefit from remembering that BPDs do not want to be that way- it hurts! It is hard! If you can imagine the feeling you get in your stomach when you hear of bad news, for instance a loved one has been hurt that is how I feel all day every day, and that is not when I am raging. That is when I am normal.
As far as I am concerned, if the BPD wants to better themselves in the the way that they express those negative feelings/thoughts but their loved one feels they can simply write them off because they HAVE BPD and are too lazy to try then it is the non-BPDs who portray evilness… Jesus does not discriminate, Jesus is understanding and Jesus helps those less fortunate than himself.
me
I have Emotionally Unstable Personality Disorder (European label for BPD). How this manifests with me is pure self hatred. I would rather die than hurt anybody else. As a child I was a pretty devout Christian, I would take myself off to church on a Sunday morning while my mother slept off her hangovers or simply to avoid her rages (I believe she had BPD – I suppose that’s my point in a sense, we are NOT all the same) but as I grew older and more and more tortured I began to wonder why God allowed this to happen to me. What did I do wrong? I’m not going to begin to describe the experiences that led to my mental illness but suffice to say I endured and witnessed far too much for a small child to be able to come out of it unscathed and whole. I’m rambling now because so much of what has been said on here has touched a nerve with me – it gives me more of a reason to hate myself. Again, I ask the question – Why did God allow this to happen?
Michelle
I have BPD and I was not only disgusted by what this lady wrote but I was LMAO! I am just plain shocked that somebody can be so ignorant and ridiculous.
Bill
I’ve read all the places where it has been stated “You obviously don’t understand BPD” in context with demonic possession. I say, you obviously don’t understand demonic possession…or, rather, you don’t believe in it. Demonic possession is NOT rare. The demonic world is very real. There IS an entity called the devil and there are spiritual entities called demons. Human beings are primarily spiritual and live in a physical body. Demonic possession occurs when a person has had an event or series of events in their life which “opened the door” to the offending spirit. That event could be drug abuse, alcohol abuse, sexual abuse, physical abuse, etc. In most cases, as in examples from Scripture, the demonic possession has effects upon the mind and the body. In Mark 9:25, for example, the spirit being exorcised is a “deaf and dumb spirit”. This spirit caused a person to lose their hearing and had a speech impediment. In today’s world, that would have been the limitation of the diagnosis. Spiritual implications wouldn’t even be considered.
I notice the common thread of offense when associating BPD and other personality disorders with demonic possession. As if this criminalizes the patient. We are ALL sinners and in need of a Savior. It’s not an “us against them” issue.
Spiritual imposition results in direct and indirect effects upon the body. The word “disorder” is good description of that. God created us to be in order. Anything that takes away or distorts that order is evil. Does that make the person evil? Not necessarily. However, some I have notices relish in their condition and embrace their disorder…for whatever reason. It becomes part of their identity and they become proud of it. They use it to justify bad behavior and that, my friend, makes the person evil.
Unapologetically, I contend that the only answer to BPD is Jesus Christ. His offer is to become delivered, to be set free, to be made whole. Medicine and therapy are temporal and only suppress the condition. Putting a bandaid on a demon will not get rid of the demon.
Everything that I wrote above can be said about a number of conditions, physical, behavioral, or emotional. Most people will reject it because either they don’t believe in the demonic realm or they don’t want to deal with the “sin” element. Just remember, Jesus spent a good portion of his 3 years of ministry casting out demons.
Acts 10:38
“How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.”
It doesn’t say, “healing all of the blind, deaf, or lame”. It says, “healing all who were oppressed of the devil”. That’s because all physical, emotional, mental, and behavioral disorder is an oppression of the devil…the more severe ones likely possession. To possess means to have custoy of. A person needs to have a custody change. From the enemy…to Jesus. He will give you rest.
'plexing
Wow, interesting exchange. The book described; just the bit described sounds like “hack” writing to me, where someone gathers just enough information to sound knowledgable and winds up discrediting stuff that has some truth and making misunderstanding even worse. Regarding the idea of demons, I do think they exist. They are the spiritual equivalent of rats, that is, opportunistic parasites. Like any vermin or parasite, they are attracted to open wounds, rotten garbage, unlocked storehouses(no boundaries) and agreement with anything toxic. If a person with BPD has a demonic “attachment’ going on, the function of the demonic is to reinforce in the person’s mind, the destructive lies and toxic beliefs that keep them in that place with the intent to destroy them. (called a stronghold; a house made of thoughts that demons find convenient refuge in) Demons attach through wounds and sinful responses to wounds and the lies we come to believe as a result. There can be two people with identical issues and one may have something demonic going on and the other not. Blanket generalizations do not help people in trouble; each case must be taken individually and with sensitivity.
There is a difference between oppression and possession. Its about territory of one’s life, and about who is at the center of the life of the person, basically. Oppression is when the evil persona has some ground in the person’s life but the person still retains majority control. In possession, the evil persona has gained total control. Its important to remember that the battle with the demonic is about agreements and the battlefield is in the mind. A believer who has surrendered their life to Christ can never be possessed fully but I believe personally they can be incapacitated to the degree that they come into agreement with an evil spiritual being via believing lies they “speak” or by choosing to indulge in personal evil.
An example of a lie might be ” my worth is based on pleasing others” or “Because I am hurt or angry, I am entitled to act this way and others are obligated to put up with it”. Jesus Christ gave believers authority in His name, over evil personalities but its about repeating religious words to invoke power. The phrase “in His name” implies intimate relationship, sharing Christ’s agenda and His character “. Its relationship as opposed to surface religiosity. The christian understanding of this subject includes the firm belief that there is no neutral ground, or “spectator” stands. You gotta serve somebody, as Bob Dylan said. Serving Christ includes coming into agreement with what God says about us, about the nature of evil and of reality, etc.
However, just as the secular world has discounted the existence of evil spiritual entities/ fallen angels,leaving people without help that goes beyond treating behavioral symptoms and creating better coping, the christian world sometimes dismisses understanding of trauma and human complexity, denying the wounded the healing and transformation they need. Personality splitting due to trauma and shame is one such reality. God neither ignores our wounds nor minmizes our sin. I personally believe BPD and any other disorder at root to be an issue of sin and woundedness together. Becoming free is about coming into agreement with God and breaking agreements with evil and requires action and active cooperation on our part that goes life and heart deep. To say that being ill is about oppression by the devil isn’t as unscientific as it may seem. Everything we do, what we eat for instance, the kind of food we choose, how often we eat it, how we care for ourselves, is all rooted in what is at the center of our lives and what we believe. Choices we make are rooted in things we believe. Is it so hard a stretch to believe therefore that sickness and disease are rooted in believing demonic lies that result in destructive choices that eventually produce evil fruit? I think some folks discount the demonic not because they don’t believe it could be possible but because they see it used as a kind of magical thinking responsiblity dodge. We are always responsible – even when something bad happened to us, its still up to us what we ultimately do about it. As someone who may have BPD (don’t know yet but wondering), I am well aware of the deep well of pain and distorted reality that has ruled my world and colored my vision for so long and equally aware of the myriad ways I’ve tried to outrun it with magical thinking, blame shifting, idealizing and devaluation, etc. God sent someone into my life whose mission was to love me. She told me later on when our relationship had matured somewhat and I was a bit more stable, that many times she was tempted to straighten me out when convoluted garbage was pouring out of my mouth for hours on end, and the Holy Spirit would say ” Just listen to her – no one has ever just listened to her”. Other times she would tell me truth that was hard to hear, because it confronted my victim menality with the call to move away from entitlement and self pity to responsiblity. I could bear it because I knew that she loved me. So believe me when I say that breaking agreements is not magical thinking. There is a battle between the part of me that believed the lies of abuse, the part that is committed to trying to control the abusers and the pain, and the part that wants to be whole. The commitment to a world that revolves around self and self protection must be broken for healing to occur but this doesn’t mean that we don’t care appropriately for ourselves, just that our orientation to life changes radically. God is not shocked or afraid of the set of issues that goes by the label “BPD” even if some people are.
Go
'plexing
oops, its supposed to say “Its NOT about repeating religious words to invoke power, sorry!
Lexie
Scott Peck’s book People of the Lie explains demonic possession and it seems perfectly possible that those with BPD, Anti-Social Personality Disorder or Drug Addiction could be possessed demons. Peck basically explains that evils done to people open the door and get lodged into people and exorcism is one way to release the demons. It is worth reading this book to come to fuller understanding. Most people with BPD had lived through trauma, tragedy or abuse and the condition is a great defense to surviving what they experienced.
Hanna
Dear All,
As a lifelong sceptic, a trained medical doctor and lifelong atheist I used to always laugh out such allegations (demonic posession) as a primitive superstition. I was an avid supporter of Richard Dawkins’ reductionistic world view as expressed in books such as “The God Delusion” and “Selfish Gene”. While I still agree with some key points e.g. that evolution of the cosmos, including the living matter, did indeed happen as scientifically explained I have however developed a broader world view which includes tolerance and acceptance of spiritual and religious phenomena as another “side of the coin” which complements rather than denies the materialistic world view.
What brought me to this point is that science as we know it and particularly the pseudo-science of psychiatry (with their completely wrong diagnostic manuals and CBT) failed to help me in my affliction (BPD). It is as simple as that. Who heals is right.I have now entered the spiritual path of healing and I feel for the first time that there is a chance for me to turn my life around for the better and to really recover.
I also strongly belive that psychiatrists, who deal with the most vulnerable people are a dangerous bunch with a huge potential to damage people by excessive use of hightly toxic medication. The danger comes from their solid assumption that they “know better” or that they know in the first place. This is both the case with unexperienced young doctors, who have no life experience, as the old ones who failed to draw correct conclusions from the life exprience they did have.
The current paradigm of biological psychiatry, supported by pharmaceutical industry, while doing a lot of good in terms of doing basic research to observe objective evidence of biological underpinnings of mental disease, is wrong to promote a view that ALL psychiatric affliction may be treatable by means of pharmaceutical agents.
This assumption is clearly wrong because it does not work in real world.
A single case of anyone who has ever been healed by spiritual means is an evidence that the currently obligatory materialistic world view is simplistic and wrong, just like just once case of incorrect result proves that a seemingly immaculate mathematical theory is wrong.
Bill
Ok Fine. She’s obviously somewhat ignorant of the medical profession on various levels, but so are many in the medical profession ignorant of the truth that surrounds them on all sides. Spirits are real. We were created as vessels of clay. Spirits thus are able to inhabit us. Evil spirits inhabit us rather than God at times because original sin allows it to happen. That was why Jesus had to die for us, so that we may be free from every sin and every demon. Oh yeah everlasting life is included. Any of you reading this, I ask you, have you ever had any thought what so ever that you felt was not your own? Ever have a habit you couldn’t rid yourself of? Ever find people treating you in the same bad way no matter where you go? Can you relate such things to science? Ever try sincerely praying to God and have every curse word imaginable come to your mind? If you like science try scientific observation and see for yourself. Now I do believe that science itself came into existence in order that we may know the truth and science has done a very good job. Many Christians now realize the sun does not revolve around the earth. Yes they fought it tooth and nail and killed some who disagreed, but be careful not to be as ignorant as they were. I’m not exactly concerned about your eternal soul, but like scientists who wanted the church to wake up I am now waiting for the scientists to wake up and realize life does not revolve around their limited knowledge and wisdom. Also all because you can not see, hear, or detect something does not mean it does not exist. If it were so I wonder how long it took for the electron to come into existence long after matter was already formed. Then again do we really know it exists?
Nuff Said
Liatris
VICTIM OR PERPETRATOR ?! What most Borderlines just do not see: I understand that if you feel really bad and out of control, that it is hard. But what about a non who is being terrorized constantly by a bpd spouse — I have no way to support myself (due to serious illness) so I cannot escape. So if he rages and threatens and does all sorts of extremely negative affirmations about how I will never get well (he sabotages my efforts to get well) – and keeps me from sleeping so that I get sicker — is THAT the poor borderline that I should have endless compassion for? It is ALL about him. He rants that I will be doomed and I cannot sleep — what does he do? He goes to sleep — no conscience, no problem. So much for the poor borderline that is suffering. How much hell and damage do you think a non should put up with? No matter how much damage they inflict, they do not see or feel it at all!! It is ALL about them. Does he stop and think, gosh she just told me she cannot sleep as a result of my casting all this negativity and evil spells around and it is making her even more ill — gee, maybe I should consider attempting to make some changes. Nope, he does not care. I could be up all night for weeks on end, burning out — he has seen the permanent damage that has occurred as a result and it simply does not matter! He is not the poor person here, I am. He sleeps like a baby while I am in sheer agony. How is that the “poor” borderline?
I saw a post where a borderline said that nons should not “harp” on the bpd during a holiday because these fun times are an escape for the bpd. What on earth does “harp” been to a borderline? If you bring down unspeakable hell on me, and then get all indignent about me pleading with you to stop, is that offending you ? Is that harping on you? This constant thing of playing the victim so that they do not have to think of themselves as the perpetrator, is ludicrous. Hello? His thinking is — how can I be the perpetrator if I am the victim? Black and white thinking at its most pathetic. Problem is — I do not fall for it. If he acts like the angry victim, does he really think that I will forget that he was just the perpetrator and say, “Oh, so sorry — I must have mistaken you for someone else — please accept my deepest apology.”
He will spin and weave any story that he likes and then believe it (sort of) and try to pass if off as real. Then when you point out that he attacked and was not attacked, he will either rage or walk away as if he heard nothing at all and just happily go watch a movie, take a nap or whatever.
Constant, relentless extremely damaging attacks and evil-wishing and cruelty and then feeling no remorse is not what I think of as a victim. Sure, a victim of being a perpetrator. He is causing so much more suffering than he is experiencing and I am not causing any of his misery — so even if he is suffering from being bpd, how does that make it my job to forever understand him and be nice — this is what boderlines expect from nons. If you are dependant upon them in such a way that you cannot leave, there are no boundaries for them, no consequences and they will eat you alive.
Bon Dobbs
Read “Stop Walking on Eggshells” and rest well. Victim and Perpetrator just lock you into an ineffective dynamic. My readers have reported that the first thing that stops with the application of the skills I teach is RAGE. You have a view through which you see the world. Yet, what if there is another approach? Enjoy SWOE and you know what? It doesn’t work. It isn’t effective.
Suzanne Croteau
I am a recovered BPD, and although I do NOT agree with this lady that we are possessed, LOL! In retrospect, with much remorse and insight there have been many times where I have probably LOOKED to be have been possessed, so although I do not agree, I am empathetic to her experience with us. Looking back, I realize I was not at all easy to like and at times easy to hate. Selfish, because I was trapped within my own head, (fairy tale mode I call it.. Non-reality) trying to fill the all consuming hole of emptiness, not able to see anyone around me, coming off as selfish and very entitled. Yea, not pleasant. So, while I know we are not possessed, I understand why someone could THINK we are, LOL! Since my recovery I have actually discovered something amazing, under all the crap you rip off, underneath is this amazing person that isn’t selfish, who doesn’t scream, who does feel feelings and not block them out, no anxiety, no emptiness, happiness, no irrational fears of abandonment, no black and white thinking, and an ability to handle your emotions properly. It’s great. But, I’m preaching, LOL. Anyway, my point is, you’re right about this lady, but what you fail to see is that (most) borderlines DO IN FACT ACT THIS WAY AT TIMES. I know I did! My Father in law, once thought I was actually evil (LOL). I was
like, “WHAT??!!”
But, while I was sick, I was actually defensive because he was attacking my core, but actually if you realize that its not YOU they are talking about it’s the DISORDER they are criticizing, the defenses may lessen. Psychiatrists may try to tell you that your whole personality is damaged, but that is NOT TRUE! I am living proof otherwise. Anyway, Logic and rationality have been my best friends since I’ve gotten better, but despite this my faith in God has remained resolute, so we’re not all nut-jobs, lol! Good luck! Despite what that lady said I absolutely know God played a part in my healing process, as I am actually fully and completely recovered with no symptoms. It has been 5 months, I have only been on Topamax with no therapy, only self reflection, and a church who prayed for me, that’s it. Yes, I know about placebo response, I research constantly and consider myself quite informed.
Wayne
Wow how interesting, good to see replies include a BPD in recovery. God Bless you Suzanne, steep yourself in God’s word and prayer. The Apostle Paul suggests we renew our minds, Rom 12:2, whether it be Spiritual deliverence or the healing Grace of Jesus doesnt matter I am open to both. I am sure 1 Cor 13 you are well aquaited with “The Love Chapter” keep those vs’s close to heart and in your mind.
I have worked in Mental Health for many years, unfortunately as I work in the secular side, there is not often that I can share my true thoughts on healing.
Book Of Enoch
While the article was rather poorly written, I think there may be some truth in the possession connection.
I have a relationship with a BPD, and have witnessed these wicked voices and faces when she is in an extreme episode. She will attack me for being Christian and say very odd blasphemous things she wouldn’t usually dare say coming from a Christian family. I even think when I am at my weakest in reacting to my BPD girlfriend, that a demon will “jump” into me and I will do something completely irrational while experiencing some kind of black out or like its all a dream while its going on. I even saw the wicked face on me one of the times. I also feel that the more spiritually strong I grow, the more frequent and stronger the attacks. Also it seems like they will possess other people around me at the time too.
Maybe the fragmented or weakend mind is where demons seek refuge. Maybe BPD isn’t possession itself, but it surely makes an easy home for it. I wonder if demons find a BPD home only in BPDs close to an adversary of theirs, a spiritual NON, someone they hate because they found or are finding their spiritual path, and they are trying to knock them off of it. Maybe thats why non-beilivers do not experiance this, or alternatively, maybe thats why belivers experience this, because its our worldview? I donno. Only Jah knows.
May He have mercy and help us all cuz this s*** is hard!!
Some insight from my alternative researches:
According to the Book Of Enoch bad spirits originate in the original sin of the angels (different than original sin of man). When they thought the daughters of Adam beautiful, they came down and assumed human form and had offspring with them. This is only mentioned in Genesis, because Enoch was normal reading in Old and New Testament times. When the offspring, part spiritual, part mortal, were erradicated from the earth by God by the Deluge, it was just their physical aspect, and their spirit remained on earth. They were evil spirits, jealous of man. In book of Jubilees Noah complains that these “Nephilim Spirits” were possesing is grandsons and corrupting the earth again.
Look it up!
Sue
The spiritual realm is no fantasy. R all bpd probs demons? No! Can we hav a demon or 2? Id bet 20 grand we do! Google m scott peck.
jane
It’s evident to me that the author of the article being “counter pointed” as well as the author of the article doing the counter pointing have equally limited knowledge of the subject matter.
Bill and ‘plex described the more rational christian view point well.
I am not an evangelical christian, but my best friend and my boyfriend both are. My boyfriend has untreated BPD and my best friend doesn’t have BPD at all. I realize the author of the article being critiques is arguing from a catholic point of view – however I can best illustrate certain things using the evangelical experience as a reference point, which answers the questions for other christian denominations as well.
One thing that Bonn Dobbs doesn’t seem to take into account is the fundamental difference in world view between christians and non christians. In Evangelical Christianity, especially in the southern us, there IS IN FACT an “us vs them”. That is not only true for them, but it is CELEBRATED. It is encouraged and emphasized. It is warned in churches that “christians” must learn to recognize US and THEM and STAY AWAY from THEM. There is a “biblical basis” for this as well as very stern warning that any contact with THEM is in fact “opening a door” to corruption by the devil and the demons.
Therefore is it not only ok to segregate us and them, it is an imperative as a “christian” to save your soul, by obeying god and to save your family. Notice evangelicals are typically insular and do not typically function or operate outside their own community? This is the reason.
The presumption is that mixing people is BAD. The over-all feeling about the concept of different people mixing is that it is FROM THE DEVIL. The very IDEA is of DEMONIC origen.
Thoughts are either pro god or anti god- no in between. So any thought which is anti god is therefore demonic in nature. Demons plant the thoughts in your mind.
It is also acceptable in the evangelical world view to deliberately NOT make people who are acting BPD feel better or feel ok about their behaviors. It is seen as encouraging and therefore acting WITH the devil in the guise of goodness. It is important for the evangelicals to make it known that the person is a “them” and that there IS something wrong with them so that they will be “ground down” and seek jesus as their lord and salvation.
I always ask “is it helpful?” and again, there is a difference in fundamental world view – the answer to my question can be answered in many ways, but an evangelical will say “yes, US versus them is helpful because our TOP PRIORITY is to obey god and to worship god”.
Never mind that this is cherry picking.
Jesus himself kept company with lepers, prostitues and “the least of these”, and his acts of kindness were largely “small one’s”- meaning things we can all do for one another – feeding a hungry man, listening to a tale of woe, encouraging the hopeless with kind words, being a friend to the friendless. he also did it with boundaries 🙂
This doesn’t mean EVERY SINGLE Evangelical in the world beleives this, but this is what I have seen in my experience in southern churches. In my opinion, it’s a lot easier to ‘walk the walk” when we see the acts of kindness Jesus performed as possible, therefore relateable. It’s lot easier to see what god and life are about when we too are able to bring a hungry person a meal and eat with them, maybe allow them to give to us by buying us a coffee – it is the act of remaining connected to every one of god’s creatures who have intrinsic worth, and remembering to know their soul, not their circumstances which keeps us connected as a civilization.
I experienced this with my best friend. I am a recovered Borderline. It was her faith that kept her strong enough to deal with me. I never knew about her faith at ALL until 5 years later. And what I saw in her example was someone who did beleive in demons, but knew very well that compassion, seeing people for who they truly are and a million acts of kindness everyday (with boundaries) was the best reflection and calling of her faith on a day to day living basis. She “knew” that demonic posession existed, but was rare. She has cast our demons in her own house and for two family members.
Some christians beleive people go through illness in order to serve god, rather bring god’s will to fruition through the life of the ill person and the transformation which takes place in the people around that person.
So, it’s not all selfish cherry pickers out there.
It’s obvious the BPD negatively affects my BF’s ability to navigate and perceive his faith. That makes total sense considering people with BPD are conflicted and have fundamental perception issues. The black and white thinking is very helpful to him because he doesn’t have to think “X is good, Y is evil, therefore if you do X you are good and are evil if you do Y”. Additionally, “blame shifting” onto demons absolves him of any responsibility either for his thoughts and feelings or his actions. When he does something destructive- hey it’s ok, he was forgiven before he did it! Never mind how anyone else is affected.
He’s an expert cherry picker. The only parts of the bible he uses are the one’s that help him justify his awful behavior at THE TIME. he will use the same passage to justify his doing X,and crucify someone else with that passage for the same action he did himself. Very typical of someone with the disorder.
The concept of demonic posession may or may not make sense to some people, but one thing is for sure, the basis for the belief either way is rooted in world view. And to say the truth, there is no irrefutable evidence to “prove” the existance or non existance either way- it is still a matter of faith largely.
Nicolas
Hmm, what can I contribute? The critic here makes good points, but doesn’t seem to understand much. I was married to a BPD, my daughter also began acting very peculiar at age 14, for 38 years I’ve been up to my neck in tantrums, binges, allegations of abuse (severe psychological, physical AND sexual), EXTREME drama, autism, PTSD and a medical musketful of pathological diagnostics. I’m also a well educated scientist and born again Christian. I’ve never had any peace as my parents were wacko before then. Being tied to all this has made it impossible for me to keep a job, and I’ve been heavily victimized with attempted extortions, death threats, phony lawsuits, embezzlements, drug racketeering, and worse. Such associations have also made me a secondary butt for the medical boys, who have aimed a barrage of psycho labels at me as well in hopes of drugging me to death to pay their country club dues and remove resistance to doing the same to the rest of the family. Both my wife and daughter have been on full disability for many, many years, I have one autistic son. I have not won despite being a Christian, I had to leave the states and the family for my own safety. But let me try to help you all. First, as a truly good biologist and statistician, MS MCL, let me tell you that the spectrum of autism inclusive of these psycho behaviors are in fact, despite the government’s lies and false research, caused primarily by vaccinations, and often blown sky high afterwards by the copper and mercury in tooth amalgams. These behaviors are mostly caused by a range of metal poisoning, copper, mercury, aluminum most from those sources but not always. Smoking and other substance abuse will make it worse. Did I say there was no demon oppression (or at times possession) in all of this? No, I did not, because you had better believe there is. Believers may be affected much differently than non believers, and everyone is different, but believers may be hit harder, and unfortunately, most Christians already secure in a church will exploit and harm these people and their families even more. So, pay attention, because this could be you or your child, and then you won’t listen, of course. You MUST avoid all substance abuse, including medical psychoactives when you’re strong enough to make the break because the devil will most likely pin you to the mat and then you’ll be stuffed to the gills with more poison, possibly under a court order. Second, you will have to distance yourself from non Christians as they will sucker you into every sexual twist and substance binge they can and make your life miserable. Third, replace any amalgams and refuse vaccinations, observe a strict diet and blast yourself with large amounts of B vitamins, ALA, magnesium citrate, etc combined with vigorous exercise for at least three years, after which you can taper off. Fourth, assuming you really are born again and know it, you must study the Bible, pray and meditate privately until God begins to do the real healing. Don’t give up. If you can find good Christian fellowship, great, but that may not be easy. Also, if BPD or whatever it’s being called inclines you towards impulsive behaviors, quit giving yourself permission to give in to them. I lost my family because they didn’t appreciate me, took advantage of my tolerance, and weren’t sensitive to the extreme risks and mental pain that they inflicted on others. With time, you will heal and the nightmare will recede. Meanwhile, know that the risks are much greater than day to day living. You can in fact lose your salvation in the end, while he who overcomes will receive life eternal.
Abbey
I can’t believe this! What a phony. Isn’t christianity and overall religion about peace and mercy? So she makes us out to be the opposing team. The evil side. It’s not a fucking war. I’d like to see her deal with this shit. I’m seventeen, officially diagnosed and sometimes its hard to even breathe with the way i feel. But I deal with it the best I can. No demons in me. And i can assure the writer of that crude artical, my eyes are not coal black, nor do they go red and watery. I do not hate religion, or flinch in gods name. I like religion.
To the writer: Thankyou for pointing out where this twat was wrong. She is absolutely ridiculous. Thanks for calling her out, otherwise I would have been sooooooooooooooooo angry.
cleo
I agree with abby. I find the whole line of thinking rigid and steeped in ignorance. I frightens me that there are people out there who REALLY BELIEVE that people are possessed. I know not all christians are like this, but the few that posted (so many!) scares me to death.
I’ve posted here before about my fundamentalist upbringing. I do believe that there is such a thing a religious trauma brought on by these very beliefs (demon possesion, questioning contradictions in the religion, and silenct suffering because you don’t dare say out loud the confusion swirling in your head because everyone will label you as a heretic, ect.). Hell to a child is as real as Santa Claus. Really. I experienced the terror over and over in the name of Idealogical Perfection. My thoughts even had to be perfect, and I lived in fear of just feeling anger (a very normal human emotion, btw) and that I was a “bad person, i.e. going to hell to burn for all eterninty.
It’s so taboo to even think that just maybe – these things might cause HARM to a child who has a highly sensitive temperment. Yet we don’t dare talk of it. Do we still see schizophrenia as demonic possession? I guess some people do. In fact some even seem to relish in it.
I am grateful that I did not grow up during the inquisition. I am also gratful for the Bon’s of the world who see that there are reasons why we do what we, and that we are NOT evil. WE just have really maladaptive coping skills, and that we already feel defective WITHOUT anybody’s help.
I want to have close loving relationships with others. I don’t want to hurt anybody. And most of all I want to feel that I am not poison to other. Everybody wants to be loved.
kelly flaherty
I’ve been dealing with a bdb for five years now and have beatiful 2 year old daughter with her. I say deal beacause of all the manipulation laced with love….sincere actully. The evil lies in the destructive motives(spirts)that tactfully and clearly direct those that they truely love to leave or be destroyed by those that truely love them.
yah everyone want’s…needs to be loved. When someone desires to exhibits love for someone that wants to be love but is not allowed because their behavior they refuse to see. The motive that drive these no doubt ucontrolable behavior appear evil by its nonsencical destructive role in the formation of any healthy relationship. The destructive spirit is an invincabe and tactful denile of the poisen that they give while truely not wanting to be poison. Of course bbds arn’t evil by definion but the motives (spirits) that make bpds deny their behaviors, are. They need to destroy the motives not yet another relationship. They need to face the motives instead of constantly running from them and placing the poison on those that care the most for them.
TMN
I am married to someone diagnosed with BPD. He has told me, when he is feeling very sad and depressed that he feels AS IF he is possessed, and although I don’t have BPD, I can see in his face and eyes that he is indeed suffering inside. I have seen the “evil” eyes, heard the yelling voices, he has even said hateful things about God when he is in a spiral.
I am Catholic, and I believe in demons etc, but I don’t think people with a mental disorder of any kind are “possessed.” If they were, we could all just call a priest and have them exorcised – that would be a piece of cake, instead of years or therapy, on and off medications, dangerous behaviors and the lot!! I truly think when he, as a BPD sufferer says, “demons” or “possessed,” they are the most accurate terms for my husband to express how he FEELS, and how SCARED he is of feeling so ANGRY.
It must be frightening to feel that “evil” has taken you over – you have no control. I feel for him.
I know he is not possessed, because he is kind, loving and sweet when not in the midst of the darkness that is part of BPD.
The woman that wrote that article, in my opinion, is treating BPD in a very dismissive and dangerous way. BPD sufferers are NOT EVIL and are not POSSESSED. They have an illness, just as Bipolar Disorder is an illness – no one says Bipolar people are possessed!!
I think the POPE himself would tell her to stop writing such careless words and ideas, it only hurts the families and the people with BPD more. This person needs to examine her Christian heart and think and pray before she writes things like that. It’s not right!
kelly
There is a hidden assumption in equating the possessed or obsessed as evil. It sholube the opposite – demons don’t need to harrass the evil because they’re complisant. The possessed and obsessed are not. I think the original author realized this and remember her(?) say possesed were evil. The assumption is my main gripe. as for mental illness and possession, here’s something I wrote earlier, on another page, that sddresses that,
March 30, 2011 at 2:33 pm
I empathize with BPDs that don’t show any of the signs of the word possession but I can’t dismiss the consideration. I have seen very strange sequent of events that seem other worldly – manipulation at a supernatural level. She’s been adept at tarot cards and I’ve seen her make jaws drop with her readings..several times. Part of her is rather orthodox in her Christian Faith though and has expressed reservations as to the danger of tarot cards and the likes. Her spooky side has subsided significantly since she’s been off Meth, another part of the possible mix for a bpd – the first being the possession part There is something like 10 possible symptoms with something like 5 require for a BPD diagnosis. Most bpds don’t exhibit these trait. But too many do for this to be ignored.
Maybe one answer is that some bpds are more susceptible to evil gateways like tarot, which seems to be another not so insignificant part BPD literature out there as a trait for some bpds; ie clairvoyant.
The spiritual dimension should not be ignored and distinctions should be investigated between mental illness and obsession ( heavy demonic influence) and possession. St. Matthew made the distinction “they presented to him(Jesus) all sick people that were taken with divers diseases [poikilais nosois] and torments [Basanois], and such as were possessed by devils [daimonizomenous], and lunatics [seleniazomenous], and those who had the palsy [paralytikous], and he cured them” (iv, 24).
The evangelist discerned between lunatics and possessed, Why can’t Psychology?
..…and maybe a new disordor should be separated from Bpd. It could be called MALadjusted Clairvoyance Disorder. }
..
sandra
I really need help from my husband who is abussive and hiding money from the whole family
Donna
Call it what you want, but I came to this site for a reason. I live with a step-daughter who is BPD and it totally feels like a dark force is in the house when she is here. I can’t explain it. I am not saying there is no such thing as mental illness, but I also believe in God and Satan and I’m not ruling out something isn’t right here.
Someone said it well-anyone who does all of the things a BPD does, but really inside wants to be loved etc…might as well be freaking possessed. If they don’t want to act that way and they have no control over it, it sounds pretty darn close to me. All of the actions are pure evil, then the good person comes out. Then they go away. And the evil glances are there. I get them all the time. They are from someone I don’t know. It is scary. I don’t look in her eyes much anymore. Its like living with the devil in my house. It destroys her and everything around it. It plots, divides, torments. I don’t know what else to say. We haven’t had any screaming matches. I don’t want to have them. Her dad would think I am crazy if he knew I was on this site, but I’m telling you-what other disease could modern day medicine call demonic possession. We have to call it something. Sorry all those with BPD-its not meant to discount your feelings, this is just an outsiders view.
Richard
Border-line personality…one of the most misunderstood disorders. I was with 2 separate borderlines for a period of about one year each. After doing so, I began researching BPD, and reading books, and papers on the subject. I did come across articles regarding possession. Later becoming a reverend I found their is possession and oppression. First we must look at the definition of “oppression:” The Webster’s Seventh New Collegiate Dictionary includes these meanings: “a sense of heaviness or obstruction in the body or mind, weight down, to burden spiritually or mentally by abuse of power or authority.” Some signs of “demonic oppression” include: depression, negativity, self-defeating thoughts, self-destructive thoughts, inability to concentrate, distractions (especially in trying to read God’s Word), feeling constantly overwhelmed, hopelessness, gloom, confusion. Although we all experience these feelings from time to time, in my research oppression occurs when these become dominate states within ones being. Who hasn’t been depressed? But who’s depressed to a level where just waking up and living another day become painful?
Here’s what I wondered, when I began my research. My ex’s were not born with evil tendencies (so to speak). They were born beautiful, and happy, and truthfully when I was with them, there were moments I could see that beauty that they were meant to be. My first ex…sexually abused 6-12 yrs old, became pregnant at 15, and the child’s father threw their baby down the stairs at six months, killing her instantly. He also tried breaking up with her, but instead of saying, “It’s over,” stabbed her 3 times in the chest. (of course she survived, but developed BPD) My last ex, assaulted by a teacher for a year. Her mom abandoned her for most of her preteen years. And had other sexual assaults. Developed BPD.
So, what I wanted to know was, how can people so beautiful and amazing, experience trauma, and develop personalities, which have nothing to do with the traumatic experience itself. Think about it. A girl is raped, then becomes what I’d consider to be the embodiment of the trauma itself. To try finding the answer, I found what “satanists” define trauma as: “The destruction of the inner spirit.” In those with BPD, demonic oppression makes sense. When someone is traumatized, their are that much more vulnerable to demonic attack. In this, however, we cannot dismiss that trauma is a tool for “satanic abuse,” to open them up and prepare the victim for satanic control. With that being said, how can we dismiss other traumas as having a different result? We can’t. Now, I say oppression vs. possession because they are different. You can be possessed by having an entity manifest within one’s being, where oppression is (I would say) negative energy, which can be just as controlling and manipulative. Those in the mental health field know this well. Without such energies, “transference” would be fallacy.
Although we can’t claim every case is of demonic intrusions, it would be ignorant to dismiss the possibility. For those who do, who have never experienced someone with BPD, you really don’t know what “hell” is with someone until you have. For example: Many of you have children. Has your child ever come into your room and woke you up with this comment, “Good, you’re alive…I thought she killed you”? Mine did at 6 years old.
Robin
My mother destroyed our entire family and our childhoods. Not only was she not diagnosed with BPD until she was 73 years old (relief for my dad to hear a label that described the hell he went through) but my sister also has the disorder. These people are on the continuum to insanity (and closely associated with multiple personality disorder, they can dissasociate when stressed or traumatized – as it first occured as children). They can lash out violently with their words and physically for what to most seem over ridiculous things. They can even appear sociopathic and other times less narcissistically evil as fairly good people that are just really, really sick because of severe abuse they endured as toddlers and children (it chemically alters their minds). There is no such thing as possession. Possession is just describing the hell a BPD or insane person, barely clinging to sanity, experiences just to stay alive every day. I truly feel sorry for them; they cannot be totally cured because you can’t find the “real” person that is “hiding” within; the person still hiding from the abuse that is too painful for them to bring to consciousness. They should never have children, never.
David Perez (non)
Hey Dude-
Yeah I know “hay” is for horses… but you act more like a WILD ORANGUTAN. I am very familiar with some people with bpd AND I work in Arkansas’ largest county courthouse; so I think I know a thing or two when I say that WITCHY WOMAN IS PROBABLY RIGHT. Tho not adhering to that particular philosophy I did attend Catholic skoolz from 1989-2003 so I got a few lessons in on the demonic possession department. There ARE some scary ass similarities between demonic states and someone who is severely black splitting; the eyes, the voice, the wicked smile, the cursing, and the like. What you fail to realize is that witchy woman IS ATTEMPTING TO DRAW SIMILARITIES BETWWEN THE TWO IN HER SEARCH FOR ANSWERS. Now maybe the bpd cases you have dealt with were very mild but I know a lot of nons would agree (with witchy and me). The fact that you totally flip on this woman shows to me that YOU are the one with BPD ( you do use the term “EVIL” when judging her philosophy, those are your caps- black splitting are we??). And every non who has ever called a tripping out bp “Satan” or “Lucifer” will be inclined to tell you that NOTHING angers the bp more than calling them any of the number of terns that mean “Devil”. You take NO responsibility for your arguments, you get circular in your attempts to discredit her, and you have an eerie way of coming to tue support of bp’s. YOU are the one with the personality disorder and unorganized thinking, NOT witchy. Your websites are chock full of mediocre and discredited misconceptions about bpd that any non would spot more quickly than a fiddler on the roof at the Nuremberg rally. But hey- I guess you consider me to be the devil now, huh? Go tell it to the Pope-O. [Put that in your bong and smoke it.]
justme
I didn’t read the article but I will say this. People with BPD emotionally and psychologically rape and abuse people. The “feeling of emptiness” that goes along with the diagnosis is the opposite of love and of God. It’s a darkness and I imagine that is all there will be for them when leaving this earth.
ouch
I live with a BPD, i never knew it until about 6n monthes ago…i know possession is real although extremely rare..but i beleive that infestation is real, and is or may be a co-condtion….i would agree that i walk on eggshells, have seen the deepest hatred that exists, and been emotionally and psychologiacally raped. I am truly sorry to all those who suffer along with me, it is not your fault, you and i deserve to feel peace and love without the constant condtitions.
To those that have BPD, you have my deepest sympthties, at least you know what you are up against and can try to get well. There is more to life than appears..God does exist and so does satan..one day everyone will know this.