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 Lying One of the most searched-upon subjects in this blog (and talked about in our ATSTP Google Group) is the subject of lying by someone with BPD. The nons are confused by untruthfulness on the part of someone with BPD and wonder how the person with BPD can have any credibility or trustworthiness when, clearly, they continue to tell bold-faced lies. In my response to a recent poster within the ATSTP group, I recently made a new revelation about truthfulness and lying by someone with BPD.
I have long said that someone will lie when telling to truth would cause more emotional suffering than lying would. However, that statement seems to indicate that there is a level of calculation when the lies arise. It infers that someone, when actually telling the lie, is deciding beforehand whether to tell the truth or not. For people with BPD, feelings = facts. It is not the events that matter to them, but how they feel about these events that truly matter.
So, two things have come to mind for me in this regard. One is that the experience of “reality” is filtered through those feelings and the person with BPD will reflect how they feel about them. If they have strong feelings about what has happened, they will actually experience things in a different manner than those of us who are rational in the face of the same events. It can hardly be called a lie in some ways because it is how they experienced reality. I lsitened to an audio CD on Buddhist a while back and there was a statement made that went like this: An artist doesn’t paint a picture and then put his “style” into the painting. He paints the picture through the lens of his style. That is how he or she sees the world. The same seems to be true for people with BPD and their emotions (rather than style).
The second thing that came to mind is the actual telling of the lie to a particular person. If someone with BPD feels that, by telling the truth, his or her feelings will be invalidated and judged by the other person, they will lie either by admission or by omission. If they don’t feel safe sharing the “truth” (and to them the truth is their feelings, not the events/behaviors themselves), they will not trust the other person with their feelings. In order to get a more truthful report from a person with BPD, one has to learn to listen to the feelings and not judge those feelings – which is extremely invalidating to the person with BPD and at the core of their “personhood” (since their feelings are immediate and strong and block out other more “objective” views of the situation). If you can listen to the feelings and validate those (for feelings are not right or wrong, they just ARE), I suspect you will get much more truth out of a person with BPD. But the truth you will receive is the truth for them, which is, of course, their feelings about an event. Still, once you start actually hearing and validating these, the level of trust accorded to you by the person with BPD will go up measurably.
I actually wrote this message on WTO some time ago. I think I am going to post some of my “Best of” message postings from WTO and from ATSTP lists – after removing any personal information from other posters. I’ve posted so many messages I would be worth it (I think) to share some of that information to the Internet public at large through this blog. So here goes (the Best of #1):
Actually, these communication methods work with anyone, anytime.
They will work in normal communication and during “OZ” – and I am
trying to always be in this mode. It is difficult and takes a ton of
effort, because it is against my normal way or interacting. At first
it will seem really awkward, but, with practice, it becomes easier
and more natural.
I used every one of the methods with my BP-ish (In other words,
emotionally sensitve and ashamed) pre-teen daughter last night.
Here’s the situation (I’ve compressed it slightly because it was
longer than this):
I come home from work and she’s all smiles. Then, she asks me where
I was late the night before (I was at a training group) and I
say “Uh, um (trying to think of the right words) … I was at a
course that I take…”
She says, “You’re lying.” (Because of the “uhs”).
I say, “Why do you say that?”
She says “Because you said ‘um’…”
So, I say “You seem sad and angry about people lying to you. Do you
think that someone lied to you today?” (Acknowledgement, I
recognized her feelings and identified them, not based on what she
said, but how she said it) See, it was not about me or the current
situation.
She says, “When people lie they say ‘uh’ a lot and people lie to me
all the time.”
I say: “Boy, that must make you feel really angry and sad to feel
that people lie to you. (Validation of her feeling) If I thought my
friends were lying to me, I’d feel pretty angry and sad too. Anyone
would feel angry and sad if they felt they couldn’t trust their
friends (Normalization, meaning, it is normal to feel this way when
you perceive that situation).”
[OK, quick aside - you will notice I didn't try to 1) fix it or 2)
deny how she feels. It could be that her friends are not lying to
her at all. In the past, I might have said - "I don't think their
lying to you, you must be wrong..." (invalidating). But that is
poison, because she actually FEELS like they are lying, whether they
are or not. Also, I can't fix her feelings. So, trying to fix it
("I'll have to talk to these kids and ...") is not the answer -
because it is about her FEELINGS, not about what "really" happened.]
She says, “Yeah, I guess so, but it still makes me really angry.”
I say, “Yes, I can see you’re really angry. Maybe you can think of
something to do when you think people are lying to you.”
(redirection, I put the responsibility for feeling back on her and
suggest she come up with a course of action)
So she says, “I guess I could just ignore them.”
And I say, “I guess you could, are there any other things you could
do?”
So, we got no real conclusion. But what this conversation kicked off
was a very open, sharing conversation with her right before bed in
which she shared with me her shame about being lied to (that is,
that she thinks that other people think she is a bad person and that
is why they lie) and many of her feelings (almost all of them
negative BTW). In that conversation, I continued to use those
techniques to acknowledge what she said and validate, normalize and
redirect.
Usually she will just say “I don’t want to talk about it”. So,
by doing this I got my foot in the trust door. BPs don’t trust you
enough to reveal their feelings. Why? Two reasons: 1) the shame is
too great to tell the whole truth, because they think that you’ll
think they are a “bad” person and 2) You have never listened in
the “right” way before, so they don’t feel heard at all. Has your BP
every said “No one understands me” or “You don’t understand me”?
They don’t feel heard/connected to you (or anyone).
Recently, I have had about 20% of the searches on this site involve someone trying to find out about lying. These searches included: “pathological liar”, “BPD and Lying”, “why does bpd lie?”, etc. It seems one on the most difficult things for the non to accept is BPs lying. Here is a note I posted on WTO some time ago about lying – I think it still applies.
As for lying, I believe that all people lie (or are willing to lie) when the truth is too painful to be told – even if that feeling of pain is not based in reality. Do BPs lie more than other people? My short answer is “Yes”.
I think the main reason is because of the intense sense of shame that they feel. I have come to realize that shame is the core emotional component of BPD. I have also come to realize that many people mistake PTSD for BPD (although BOTH can be part of the mix,my wife has both components). In PTSD FEAR is the key emotional component. In depression, it is sadness. In Intermittent Explosive Disorder it is anger.
 When Hope is Not EnoughGet the Non-BPD book that is designed for staying and working on the relationship BPD is a “personality” disorder because shame is not a “primal”emotion – like fear, anger, joy, sadness, disgust and contempt. No,shame is an emotion evoked in relationship to other people’s senseof judgment. You can’t feel shameful without a sense that what you’re doing (or, in the case of BPD, what you ARE) is “wrong”.
All people have different capabilities for handling emotions. BPs seem to have a diminished capacity for handling theirs – and, since shame is key, they are more likely to “hide” the truth (even from themselves). In the case of lies, if they feel that the truth would reveal something shameful, they lie IMO. In the case of my wife, she lies if she feels that she will be judged for telling the truth.That is where the shame component arises. If she feels that I (or anyone) will judge her behavior (really, her feelings) as “wrong”or “bad”, she will likely lie, either by admission (actually sayingsomething that is not true) or omission (leaving out the truth). The deal seems to be that she feels the shame in telling the truth, that shame is painful (as it is for everyone) and to avoid that pain, she lies. In other words, her lies are all about protecting herself frompain and judgment (even self-judgment) and have nothing to do with me. It is not personal.
If avoidance of pain is considered “disassociation” (which in some cases avoidance of intense pain DOES cause real disassociation),then I think you could say that she “disassociates” from the painful truth.
On a final note, I also believe that this shame-sense is misplaced.They have nothing to FEEL ashamed of – sure, they do all kinds of “shameful” things, but only in relation to other people. If my wife cuts herself, she does so without shame and not to get other people’s attention. Still, at the core of her being is a sense ofshame – like she has a deep, dark secret she must protect – even though there’s no real secret there. I suspect this comes from the BP’s shaky sense of self. She will do anything (including lie) to protect what’s not even there.
A Daughter with BPD who Lies
This was my response on WTO to a woman who was very angry with her daughter for lying to her and for having friends over to her (the mother’s) house all night when the mother specifically prohibited it. The mother felt very manipulated and angry – she felt the daughter was disobeying her to hurt her. FYI, the daughter is 23 and was diagnosed with BPD when she was about 16.
Hi. Yes, I thought that your daughter was in a situation like that – around 21-25, diagnosed with BPD and once in a residential facility. The reason I asked those specific questions is that I have seen other young women in the exact situation as your daughter and acting exactly the same way. I could further speculate that your daughter has trouble keeping a job (even a very menial one), has difficulty getting up in the morning, smokes (or once did) or does (or did) rely on drugs or alcohol, etc. – typical BP behavior for young women her age.
I think I can help explain the motivation behind her actions. After you read this you can choose to believe me or not, but these comments are based on my experience with several BPs from a support group (a physical one) that I attended. I met many parents of BP daughters and spoke with them about their daughters behaviors and, after several weeks, their feelings. It took some time to see through the behaviors to the feelings. What I am giving you here is sort of a “short cut” to the underlying feelings of your BP daughter. It may be hard to believe at first, but I would encourage you to consider it carefully.
First of all, it totally stinks to have your daughter not heed your requests. It’s got to be extrememly frustrating to have a daughter who seems to sepcifically disobey you and lie to you on a daily basis. It also must be infuriating to see her “buffalo” the doctors that she goes to see.
However, I think I can explain all of that. I have found that BPs pretty much all feel the same way inside. So, I am going to speculate that the reason that your daughter lies to you and disobeys you to have her friends over is twofold (but inter-related):
1) She is too ashamed of herself to say “no” to her friends. She doesn’t want them to know that she’s “crazy”. She feels that the consequences with her friends to say “no” to them are greater than the consequences she will incur by lying to you. Meaning, her lying is not specifically to hurt you (although it DOES hurt you a lot, as I can see); instead, her lying is about her feelings of shame and her inability to say “no” to her friends because of it. It is VERY common for BPs to overcommit themselves to other people because they are desperately seeking approval from their peers. They feel that to be a good friend (and, for them, a good person), they have to give everything to their friends (at first). When this doesn’t make them feel any better inside, they withdrawl suddenly from friendships in anger – they split the friends black. But ultimately this behavior of valuation and devaluation is rooted in their inner shame about who they are. Why do they feel that way? Well, that could lead to a much longer discussion, but let’s just say that they ALL DO.
2) At 23, she is desperate to be “normal” and not be “crazy”. The stint in the in patient facility and the diagnosis of BPD has put a big red “C” (for crazy) across her chest. She’s terribly afraid that her friends will see that she is crazy and will run away from her (fear of abandonment). This fear is also rooted in shame. She is ashamed that she is not just a normal young woman like all of her peers. She’s 23, so she thinks “isn’t it ‘normal’ to be able to have friends over to your house all night?” The problem is she doesn’t know how it actually feels to be normal. And that she is not normal enough to have her own place yet (that probably also deeply embarrasses her). She has always (I suspect from when she was a little girl) felt uneasy about her feelings – she has always felt weird and broken inside. She is ashamed of that feeling, because it is not normal. She probably constantly worries about not being normal, about being broken. And then she worries about worrying too much and on and on. They (the BPs) all feel this way too. So she is fighting not really against you specifically, but against her own feelings of being not normal, of being crazy.
Anyway, I understand why you would feel that her actions are specifically designed to hurt you. She “buffalos” the doctors for the same reason. She is ashamed to admit to herself that she’s “crazy” in any way – although deep down she’s always known that she is “different” or “weird inside”. I have verfied these feelings with many different borderline teens, young adults and adults (including my wife and my “pre-BPD” daughter). I used to think that there was malice involved in their actions, but now I believe their actions are sad attempts to try and fill that deep sense of emptiness that they have inside them. They really don’t consider how their actions effect you at all. It takes time and learning before they can see that.
OK, I don’t know if I’m right on the money as far as the daughter is concerned. But feel free to comment if you think I am or am not.
Many people when they find out about BPD, read “Stop Walking on Eggshells”. Just about everyone in the “non” community has read it. I read it AND read the workbook. At the time I thought, “Yes! Someone who understands!” I thought, “Finally, a method for dealing with my wife’s crazy behaviors.”
Well, folks, I was wrong. This book is about nons and ways for the nons to handle the BP’s behavior. Unfortunately, for the BPs, it does nothing to help them heal. In fact, the idea of setting limits and boundaries for BPs only serves to pissd them off more. Let me tell you why:
BPD is a disorder in which the sufferer feels emotions more strongly that a normal person.
When they are in the throes of a deep feeling, they cannot think logically. The limit that you set merely acts as a judgement of their behavior and boundary to be stepped over. They need to feel that they are OK. They live in a state of shame. If you tell them, through boundaries, that they are not OK, the message merely serves to fuel the deeply-felt emotion of shame. The behavior will get worse and you will get even angrier. This cycle of shame-anger between you and the BP serves to make you feel even more like leaving, like they can’t be “cured” and distances you from them even more. That is the real BP “dance” or “merry-go-round”.
When talking recently to the BP in my life, she had been reading a post on the Internet about “boundaries” and “limits” when dealing with borderlines. The post said this man’s ex-wife was a borderline – a nigtmare and a total abuser of him and the relationship. So, he left her. I wonder how that made her feel? Shamed further, perhaps?
I’m not saying that everyone should stay with their BP partner. What I am saying is: if you decide to stay, you should help that person heal, rather than set limits, sign contracts, be angry, etc.
Remember, borderlines suffer a lot of internal pain. All day, everyday. And they will do anything to stop the pain, including cutting, starving, raging, spending and attempting suicide.
Buy the book that can make your relationship last and grow:
When Hope is Not EnoughGet the Non-BPD book that is designed for staying and working on the relationship
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