Borderline Personality Disorder,  Emotions,  Manipulation

The myth of Hoovering

hoover_vacuum.jpgNOTE: I responded to a comment about this article. If you’re gonna read this one – also read this one.

I get so sick of the “support community” for Non-BP’s on the Internet. The terms that invent and proliferate – it’s enough to drive someone crazy. Misinformation, misinformation, misinformation. I understand that Nons are upset, angry and confused about BPD. Heck, I was upset, angry and confused too – about three ten years ago. I think it’s best to learn as much as you can about the disorder and to practice skills to make things easier, both for the BP and the Non-BP.

Today, I’d like to take on the idea of “hoovering.” A full definition of hoovering can be found here (BTW, that is a lousy website for BPD information IMO). You can read the definition and forget it.

Hoovering doesn’t exist.

As a Non, you might feel that it exists, but in reality it doesn’t exist. I know I’m bound to get angry emails or comments from angry Nons that are convinced that they have been hoovered. “It happened just last night!” I thought I had been hoovered, way back on November 2, 2005. Here’s the text of a message I posted on WTO about my wife’s “hoovering”:

FROM ANOTHER LIST MEMBER: [I have never written before because I was too ashamed to admit that I had allowed myself and my children to fall into such a bizarre and screwed up situation, nor am I sure that anyone would believe what we have actually lived through.]

MY RESPONSE:
Yes, no joke. Really none.

I have felt this way for YEARS. I have refused to open up to anyone. I was embarrassed and sick about the behaviors. It wasn’t until last month at this time – when my wife exhibited “cutting” behavior – that I realized that she’d finally gone and done something I didn’t have an inkling about why. I always understood the depression (it’s in my family in spades) – I always understood the rage (well, sort of, Nons are angry too) – But I never felt the compulsion to cut myself.

That = research. Research = finding out about the real story behind BPD. That = finding WTO. This forum is just about the only thing that keeps me sane. Knowing that I’m not alone, that’s priceless.

You are not alone. Embarrassed, sure. Hiding the secret, yes.

My wife is currently (well, if she wasn’t passed out from taking too many sleep pills) in a BP moment – she just hoovered in the most primal way – trying to push my buttons, but me not allowing them to be pushed. That = rage on her part (and I have said she isn’t a rager – she only rages when I don’t comply). Now I’m 3 rooms away (we have a fairly large house) and I can hear her snoring away as I write this. Point is – embarrassed or not – the nons all feel your pain.

God, I knew nothing about BPD back then. I was so ignorant. I actually said that finding WTO was “finding the real story behind BPD.” Stupid me. I’ve learned so much more about BPD since then and realized that WTO was poisonous toward maintaining a relationship with a BP. I just felt so validated there, because I found other people that had experienced some of the same things I felt I had experienced. I had an explanation and some (virtual) shoulders to cry on. Unfortunately, that is all they do there – bitch about there (usually) “BPxh” (who most likely doesn’t have BPD and is just an a-hole) and cry on each other shoulders. I suppose there’s room in the (virtual) world for that. Must be, considering they have 4000+ members.

Ok, back to hoovering. Why do I say it doesn’t exist? I say it doesn’t exist because a person with BPD has dysregulated emotions. When they feel kind, happy, desperate, anxious, sad, angry, etc. they actually FEEL that way. The feeling is overpowering. It is not a “designed” situation. It is not manipulation – which is exactly what hoovering implies. A person with BPD is too “in the moment” of their dysregulated emotions to plan ahead of time when to hoover. Granted, this action may be born out of a fear of abandonment. However, the feeling is real and not prearranged.

Well, then you might ask me: What does this person (with BPD) actually believe about me? Are they telling the truth when they rage at me and tell me they hate me? Are they telling the truth when they “hoover” me into sex (or something else)? My answer: they are telling the truth in both situations. The truth is what they feel at any given time. It is not about you. It is about their feelings and their inability to self-soothe. I have an acronym for this in my book: IAAHF (It’s all about his/her feelings). Once you understand that, you are moving a long way toward the path of healing.

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34 Comments

  • Des

    I really appreciate how well-tended and comprehensive your blog continues to be. However, I just wanted to comment on this entry, because I feel it alienates a lot of people who could potentially benefit from your experience as partner of someone with BPD.

    Your contempt for the WTO forum at large is pretty thinly – if at all – veiled in this entry. I realize it’s not the most optimistic community in terms of sustaining a relationship with a BPD-affected partner, but Nons are not seeking answers for that sole purpose. I’m sure you can relate to the rending ambivalence and loss of self that most Nons find themselves coping with. Sometimes they may need people to commiserate with, or to give them a much-needed wake-up call that they’re in danger and should exit. I’ve only recently joined and have already seen many cases of members rebuilding their lives with the support of the group, and this is anything but harmful for both the Non and the person with BPD

    A lot of Nons have been / are in abusive, traumatic situations as a result of BPD. Receiving validation of that experience, as well as advice and encouragement, can repair self-esteem, renew strength, or even save lives. The sense of isolation inherent to that dynamic can emotionally cripple a person and sometimes all they need is a dialogue to confirm that they’re not alone in it. Why denounce a forum – merely a sum of individuals no different than your own readership – from which you yourself once received support, just because you’ve ultimately found a solution that suits your personal situation better? Is it that crucial for you to put such a vast gulf between your enlightened mentality and their “so three years ago” state of ignorance, confusion, and anger?

    Regarding the misinformation you mention, you’ve discounted the existence of the “hoovering” phenomenon on the basis that it’s not a conscious behaviour. In the link you provided, and in mentions of this concept I’ve seen elsewhere, I didn’t note any stipulation that the key ingredient of hoovering is premeditation. It’s merely an esoteric term to describe the behaviour that follows after the person with BPD has done something to scare off / push away their partner, and it is very compelling and sometimes very dangerous for the Non. It also mirrors the cycle of violence in cases of domestic abuse and you are dismissing the realities of countless victims who are so frequently told they should “just leave”. THIS is a shining example of ignorance. Whatever household appliance you name it after, the behaviour pattern in question most certainly does exist, in studies, interviews, textbooks, and therapy sessions, regardless of whether the person enacting it is conscious of its effects.

    Lastly, I wanted to comment on something specific you wrote that leapt out at me:

    “Unfortunately, that is all they do there – bitch about there (usually) “BPxh” (who most likely doesn’t have BPD and is just an a-hole) and cry on each other shoulders.”

    I don’t know if you intentionally meant to do this, but the above assessment comes off as quite gendered and judgmental. The use of “bitch” in conjunction with “BPx[husband]” and “cry[ing] on each other’s shoulders” all connote negative stereotypes about women. The sweeping judgment that the aforementioned is “all they do” also devalues any positive or conversations they may have had there; moreover, I don’t understand what led you to the conclusion that their “(usually)” ex-husband does not likely have BPD. Care to clarify?

    I’ve read your blog in bits and pieces since first finding out that the man in my life had BPD and had found your observations to be well thought-out and fairly objective, despite stemming from subjective experience. This entry undermines your overall credibilty with its unwarranted hostility, blatant disregard of effective communication techniques (validation, anyone??) and unsettling degree of callousness towards the majority of your audience: Nons.

  • Bon Dobbs

    Des,

    Thanks so much for your thoughtful and lengthy comment. After reading your comment, yes, I’d like to clarify about Hoovering specifically, which I plan to do in a new post about it and about your comment here. You said:

    (snip)
    “Unfortunately, that is all they do there “ bitch about there (usually) “BPxh” (who most likely doesn’t have BPD and is just an a-hole) and cry on each other shoulders.”

    I don’t know if you intentionally meant to do this, but the above assessment comes off as quite gendered and judgmental. The use of “bitch” in conjunction with “BPx[husband]” and “cry[ing] on each other’s shoulders” all connote negative stereotypes about women. The sweeping judgment that the aforementioned is “all they do” also devalues any positive or conversations they may have had there; moreover, I don’t understand what led you to the conclusion that their “(usually)” ex-husband does not likely have BPD. Care to clarify?

    I’ve read your blog in bits and pieces since first finding out that the man in my life had BPD and had found your observations to be well thought-out and fairly objective, despite stemming from subjective experience. This entry undermines your overall credibilty with its unwarranted hostility, blatant disregard of effective communication techniques (validation, anyone??) and unsettling degree of callousness towards the majority of your audience: Nons.
    (unsnip)

    That comment of mine springs from a frustration with the “nons” audience. I agree that nons require validation because, clearly, they are suffering from the chaotic interpersonal relationship with their BP. At the same time, many “nons” from certain areas of the Internet are not really nons at all. While my emotional skills can help anyone would is in a relationship with a highly emotional person, I have found that many people that are complaining about their “BP” are really in a relationship with someone with (primarily) NPD. BPD and NPD are two completely different disorders IMO. Emotional skills that work with BPs will not work with NPs – in fact, the skills could just make the situation worse.

    I certainly apologize if I came across as invalidating toward nons, yet I wanted to make it clear that MANY people on the Internet are not dealing with BPD – and it matters. The reason I used women (and men can bitch too IMO) as an example is that BPD is more often diagnosed in women, not men. NPD, on the other hand, is more often diagnosed in men. So, it would seem to me that most of the people seeking help for their BP would be men – which is exactly the case on the ATSTP list, but it not the case on WTO. When these people (many of them women) describe the behavior of their “BPxh” it seems clear to me that they are not dealing with BPD at all. This is not to say that YOU are not dealing with a BPx. It’s just that I have found, with the popularity of SWOE, people read that book and assume that they are dealing with BPD. In many cases, this is not the case. So, some of these “nons” (which as you note is my primary audience) are not non-BPs at all (although they may be non-something else).

    I write this blog and I wrote my book so that non-BPs can become more effective in their relationships with their BPs. However, if the other person does not have BPD or another similar emotions-based disorder, using the skills can be ineffective. While they can work with other emotional situations, if the person has NPD or some other clearly non-emotional disorder, these skills will not be effective. My intention in writing this post was not to insult or invalidate the nons – no, that would be counter-productive – it was to encourage the nons to examine closely their relationship with their BP to see if, in fact, it is an emotions-based disorder.

    Bon

  • Bon Dobbs

    Des,

    Also, I wanted to respond to one more comment you made here, and I will follow up with a post about Hoovering when I get a chance:

    (snip)
    Your contempt for the WTO forum at large is pretty thinly – if at all – veiled in this entry. I realize it’s not the most optimistic community in terms of sustaining a relationship with a BPD-affected partner, but Nons are not seeking answers for that sole purpose. I’m sure you can relate to the rending ambivalence and loss of self that most Nons find themselves coping with. Sometimes they may need people to commiserate with, or to give them a much-needed wake-up call that they’re in danger and should exit. I’ve only recently joined and have already seen many cases of members rebuilding their lives with the support of the group, and this is anything but harmful for both the Non and the person with BPD
    (unsnip)

    I agree with you that nons are not seeking answers for the sole purpose of staying with their partner. In fact I have met many, many PARENTS of BPs (95% of them mothers of BPD young women) and they do need skills to learn to be more effective with their daughters. However, in the case when you want to leave a BPD-partner or you have already left a BPD partner, I am not the resource to turn for that advice and support. WTO is IMO discouraging of people that do want to work things out and to share effective skills in that process. I consult with loved ones who want to remain loved ones, not with people who want to know how to leave a relationship.

    I used WTO (as you say below) 3 years ago to commiserate, to vent and to “bitch” about my wife’s behavior. You can go back into the archives and see those messages from the Oct 2005-Dec 2005 time frame.

    What I decided to do with my life is take it back without having to leave my wife in the process. I wanted to remain a loved one and took the attitude that we are on the same team, even if it seems that she is committing errors all over the place. I got emotionally tough and learned emotional skills. Those helped me get through the past 3 years and promote healing on both sides of the coin. As for contempt for WTO, I think it has its place, but it is not a place for me or for people who want to be more effective in their relationships.

    (snip)
    A lot of Nons have been / are in abusive, traumatic situations as a result of BPD. Receiving validation of that experience, as well as advice and encouragement, can repair self-esteem, renew strength, or even save lives. The sense of isolation inherent to that dynamic can emotionally cripple a person and sometimes all they need is a dialogue to confirm that they’re not alone in it. Why denounce a forum – merely a sum of individuals no different than your own readership – from which you yourself once received support, just because you’ve ultimately found a solution that suits your personal situation better? Is it that crucial for you to put such a vast gulf between your enlightened mentality and their “so three years ago” state of ignorance, confusion, and anger?
    (unsnip)

    I agree wholeheartedly with you assessment here. Your description of some non relationships are exactly that. I am not denouncing WTO – I am pointing out that at some point, depending on your goals and your relationship, many nons outgrow WTO and want to arrive at a place that is more effective than commiseration. My readership (as I see it, both here and on my Google groups email list, which is much smaller, but IMO much more intimate than WTO) are the people that reach the point where they don’t want to be told “run, run, run!” or “put up boundaries” as a way of being effective in their relationships.

    And yes, it is that crucial, because I serve as an example of someone who was able to learn, grow, heal and change such that I rebuilt my relationship with my wife and daughter. Others who have read my book also have indicated the same thing. I think one has to keep in mind one’s goals. As I said in my SWOE vs. WHINE post, the subtitles of each book indicate the different stance each book takes. SWOE’s is “taking back your life when someone you care about has BPD.” WHINE’s is “a how-to guide for living with and loving someone with BPD.” My goal was the second – it is relationship focused (and can help with other relationships that are emotionally intense). SWOE’s goal is focused on healing and empowering the non and, while it does talk about the relationship, it is not really relationship-focused – it is non-focused. Both have their place, depending on the place at which one is in their relationship and healing process.

    I have grown to the point where I have completed the SWOE non-healing part of my evolution, now I am relationship-focused. Both contribute to my having a calmer life and relationship. It is difficult for me to “go back in time” and state the same things over and over. I still have to do it on my own list (the ATSTP Google Group), but I come at it from a new perspective. That is: if you want to keep the relationship and promote healing within yourself and within the person with BPD, here are some specific ways you can do so – and each worked (and continues to work) for me.

    Bon

  • Bon Dobbs

    No, I’d rather not anyone do that. That seems a bit like a public airing of dirty laundry and unless the person self-identifies, seems a violation of privacy.

  • Skip/BPDFamily.com

    The term “hoover” is “urban slang”. The term was born on an Internet support forum in the early 2000’s (not WTO).

    Is it a good term or a bad one? I think the true test is whether it enlightens and provides clarity over more conventional terminology or whether it obfuscates and furthers misunderstanding.

    From my experience, it is more the latter.

    “Hoovering” generally implies maliciousness, premeditation, and that a pwBPD does it intentionally to injure the “non”.

    As B Dobbs points out, pwBPD are notoriously impulsive, wounded, and reflexive and often too consumed in their own pain to be respectful or sensitive to others.

    While the “reason” may not matter much with respect to how much a non is hurt by such actions… the reason does matter in terms of how the non can best respond for all involved.

    Good discussion.

  • Bon Dobbs

    Skip,

    Thanks for the comment and, of course, I agree with your point that the term “hoovering” comes with connotations that prevent further understanding and, even more so, the development of compassion for the other person. Compassion and understanding are vital to the communication of feelings without judgment and with honesty. The problem I have with terms such as “hoovering” is that they do imply malicious intent – it connotes the idea of “tricking” the family member into believing something that is a charade. I fully believe that when a person with BPD says he/she is wanting the other person back, that the person with BPD actually feels this way at the time, regardless of whether this feelings will morph/change in the future, which, in my experience, the feelings usually do morph – such is the nature of emotional dsyregulation. I recently posted to my list that “they always mean it at the time”, meaning, because of the overwhelming emotions, the person with BPD is likely to be expressing feelings in an honest fashion, at least at any given moment, with little or no premeditation or manipulative intent. One thing that many people ignore or do not fully understand is the nature of emotional dysregulation and the power that these emotional states can have over (any) person. The “reason” does matter, because it can be understood and more effectively dealt with if it is understood and mentalized.

  • GodofThunder

    “Ok, back to hoovering. Why do I say it doesn’t exist? I say it doesn’t exist because a person with BPD has dysregulated emotions. When they feel kind, happy, desperate, anxious, sad, angry, etc. they actually FEEL that way. The feeling is overpowering. It is not a “designed” situation. It is not manipulation – which is exactly what hoovering implies. A person with BPD is too “in the moment” of their dysregulated emotions to plan ahead of time when to hoover. Granted, this action may be born out of a fear of abandonment. However, the feeling is real and not prearranged.”

    When speaking of hoovering, no one is debating whether a BPD’s feelings are real or not.

    Your argument is based upon whether or not this action (called hoovering)is premeditated. That is completely irrelevant.

    I agree that BPDs (when hoovering)act impulsively. They do not pull out a calendar and say “Alright, I’m gonna call my ex every Thursday at 5 and see if he’ll respond.” And I agree it is not done with conscious, malicous intent.

    They do it out of a desperate need for attention (caused by a fear of abandonment).

    When my ex hoovered me, she was actually disappointed that I was no longer attempting to make contact with her(even though she ended the relationship, and no longer had feelings for me). She tried to make me feel guilty that I was moving on with my life.

    The point is, the BPD is trying to keep some sort of relationship going. They may not be consciously aware of their intentions, but by contacting their ex, they are trying to prevent their ex from moving on. When relationships end, they end. They are not transformed.

  • Bon Dobbs

    “The point is, the BPD is trying to keep some sort of relationship going. They may not be consciously aware of their intentions, but by contacting their ex, they are trying to prevent their ex from moving on. When relationships end, they end. They are not transformed.”

    They are trying to deal with the painful feelings of fear, shame and sadness. The “keeping the relationship going” is merely the current “salve” that they believe will make them feel better. People with BPD IMO act/react out of one basic stance – that is pain emotions. It is about their current feelings and has little to do with you – even when it is about the relationship.

  • Anonymous

    I would agree that Hoovering is a myth, as I do not beleive my wife’s emotional outbursts are premeditated, but I fully beleive that the person with BPD knows full well what they did was wrong AFTER the fact and will attempt to “cover up” what they did and WILL THINK and PLAN of ways to do that. For instance, if my wife calls me an @ssh#le and says that she has never hated someone more in her life, and then in an hour or two acts as if nothing happened, if I address what she did when she seems calm, I will reignite the anger. She will have planned out me questioning her emotional outburst because she on some level must see how inappropriate they it was and will have an argument and my “faults” at the ready to pin fault on me. I base this on experience as everytime I confront my wife about her bahavior right after, during, or even when things seem calm, I get a very PREORCHESTRATED argument where I am always wrong. This is why therapists and many books instruct to never confront the BPD until things are better, ie their defense are down. So I guess what I am saying is although Hoovering I beleive is a myth, planning and thinking at least after the outburst is concerned is very real.

  • Anonymous

    I don’t think they plan anything. I think they are embarrassed by their behavior and inability to regulate their emotions. So when we confront them, they rage because they just want to forget they acted inappropriately and hurtful. I think they really hate to hurt and it is easier to start over and not face what they did. Or take responsibility. I never brought up my ex’s behavior if it was negative. I didn’t have to, he knew what he did…just didn’t understand why. And to this day I feel he is a good person who wants to be loved and love back without fear.

  • Skip/BPDFamily.com

    Excessive relationship recycling, or break-up/make-ups happen a lot in some “BPD” relationships. 70% of our members having unsuccessful relationships report having had 4 or more break-up/make-ups. 23% report an unbelievable 10 or more.

    Recycling is about both parties. No one gets “hoovered” or “sucked” into a relationship against their will. The real dynamic is that both parties return to a place they feel is safer/easier than being apart.

    Recycling can become the “norm” in a relationship. Both parties can become conditioned to it after a while. Accepting this “norm” is the ultimate boundary violation – you are not treating each other well. Frankly, recovering from this “norm” is not possible for some couples.

    If you have been through more than 3 break-up/make-ups in your relationship, its important to recognize that your relationship has a low probability of succeeding. Advanced recycling will not go away on its own. One person can’t fix it unilaterally. The only hope is to make a joint commitment to some type of structured rehabilitation (e.g., therapy, support group, workshops, self-help program, etc.)

    Fix it (together) or admit defeat and move on. Living with excessive recycling is a bad place to be.

    Good comments.

    Skip
    BPDFamily.com

  • NOYB NOYB

    ‘ Ok, back to hoovering. Why do I say it doesn’t exist? I say it doesn’t exist because a person with BPD has dysregulated emotions. When they feel kind, happy, desperate, anxious, sad, angry, etc. they actually FEEL that way. ‘

    False. What they are feeling is their fear of abandonment, isolation, and of being alone. Paralyzed by the fear, and triggered by events to which they cannot recognize a direct participation, whether implicitly, or explicitly, their motivating factor is to assuage their distorted, dysregulated emotions – this…is the primary emotion, and the motivating element that has precipitated their behavior – the hoovering.

    What results are disingenuous statements that do not procure any insight into the behavior that lead up to such circumstances, let alone the cognitive distortions that precipitated said behavior. It is a mere mask.

    This is what distinguishes the difference between an individual who is capable of recognizing their behavior, and the consideration of those they are in communication with, and that of the pathological personality, when said individuals seek to mend any issues within any given interpersonal relation they seek to preserve.

    ‘ Well, then you might ask me: What does this person (with BPD) actually believe about me? Are they telling the truth when they “hoover” me into sex (or something else)? My answer: they are telling the truth in both situations. The truth is what they feel at any given time. It is not about you. It is about their feelings and their inability to self-soothe. ‘

    What? What they feel at any given time? Their actions are based upon concretized, ego-syntonic defense mechanisms, coupled with an inability to recognize their behavior, and, the thoughts that lead up to them.

    That said, with regards to how they ‘feel’:

    Perceptions lead to thoughts,
    Thoughts lead to emotions (feelings),
    Emotions lead to behavior.

    Triggers are pre-supported by distorted perceptions and how they are received, not how they ‘feel’. If their perceptions are cause for concern, their ‘feelings’ must be reviewed concurrently. This is precluded by core wounds that must be uncovered.

    That said, once their fear of abandonment is triggered, and the ‘hoovering’ begins, a list of blanket statements begin to emerge – statements which have been conscientiously cataloged for recital. statements which have been otherwise absent from the relationship, not only in conversation, but especially in spirit. They do not see the other individual – they are an object – nor do they recognize virtues of their articulation. They parrot their list, and seek for acclamations as a result of them. If the other individual accepts their statements, it reinforces and supports the disordered ego-syntonic state, along with the narcissism it relies upon. It is their distorted fears, that compel them to act, not the recognition, or the consideration for, or of the individual.

  • Samantha

    As a person who had BPD and recovered from it, I feel like I would be able to offer a useful perspective on this issue from the other side. The person who commented: “I fully beleive that the person with BPD knows full well what they did was wrong AFTER the fact and will attempt to “cover up” what they did and WILL THINK and PLAN of ways to do that” is absolutely correct, at least from what I remember from my own experience. Those in the active throes of BPD will not tell you this, but Borderlines very frequently know well what they are doing with regard to manipulation after the initial emotionally intense firestorm has passed. In the aftermath of the lack of impulse control, it basically then becomes a game of “ cover up my bad parts to avoid unbearable shame and abandonment” I will explain:
    When I had BPD, I would say things in the heat of the moment and not really be thinking about what I was doing, sort of like “autopilot” but afterwards, I would know full well that what I did in that emotional moment was wrong, out of line, sometimes completely sneaky and often emotionally abusive. I knew it deep in my heart but I would do nothing about it. I would feel very guilty, but still actively plan my strategy to avoid owning up to it like a little kid who doesn’t want mommy to realize that I actually broke her favorite vase, and not the cat. See what you must realize is, a person with BPD cannot simultaneously see themselves as both good and bad, just like they cannot see YOU as both good and bad. The thinking is black or white even for their own self, so basically the issue becomes “If I acknowledge that I am not perfect and did something very mean to my partner, that means I am 100 percent horrible and wicked and unlovable, and when the other person gets wind of it, they will abandon me” So even when I knew later on that I had done wrong, my ego was far too fragile to accept any wrongdoing whatsoever on my part, and I had to just use denial, projection, etc. to feel like I was in the right and fully justified. This served two purposes: One was that I would not fall into crushing self-loathing at the unbearable realization that there were ACTUALLY parts of me capable of being cruel, and the second reason for me realizing my guilt, but not admitting it or changing it was not wanting my badness to be “found out”, lest the person leave me. That was far too much to risk, so I would just rely on my old “bag of tricks” to keep them around. It was all I knew how to use to survive with my underdeveloped ego. So later, I would realize how wrong I was, but would knowingly try to cover my tracks with all sorts of dramatic gaslighting and planned manipulation to keep the other person from figuring out that it was actually ME who was totally wrong and out of line. As long as they questioned themselves and wondered if it was all their fault; as I would so often say it was, I would be protected from the crushing reality of my own flaws. Since I didn’t realize back then that I could sometimes make horrible mistakes, but still be an okay person who can be loved by someone, the idea of simply owning up to my wrongdoing was unthinkable. So the manipulation which came after the fact was a plan to avoid having my “sins” exposed either to the other person or, most importantly, to myself. I think this is the true reason why those with BPD will say “I can’t stand it when people say those with BPD are manipulative. That is nothing but a myth” I used to say that too, but it was because I was in denial even to myself. To maintain any self-esteem at all, I needed to maintain the “all white” image of myself as a person who was not even remotely capable of doing that, so I would get very angry when anyone would make any statement which threatened this image. I needed to believe it was nothing but a horrible stereotype to avoid the reality of admitting to MYSELF that it was often quite true. From my personal experience, the true BPD problem is not the emotional regulation issues, but rather the severe ego/identity issues which cause so much use of hurtful defense mechanisms in relationships.

  • Jonathan

    Joining this discussion a year late.

    As an ex-NON, I have to say that hoovering DOES in fact exist. In fact, I don’t think PWBPD have a right to say that it DOESN’T exist! If you’ve had it done to you, there’s no doubting it.

    “Hoovering” generally implies maliciousness, premeditation, and that a pwBPD does it intentionally to injure the “non.”

    No, sorry. This is a false statement. Maliciousness or premeditation do not have to be present for hoovering to take place. To say that ‘No malicsiousness/no premeditation = NO HOOVERING’ is an extremely subjective notion. A BPD can – and often does – hoover without maliciousness or premeditation. The term ‘Hoovering’ is not perjorative in and of itself. Its meaning depends on context.

    Here’s an example of of Hoovering:

    I broke it off with my ex BPD and told her that, in no uncertain terms, it was OVER and that I wanted NO CONTACT. A week later, during a hurricane, she called me frantically to ‘see if I was allright’ because there was severe flooding in my area.’ I was safe. In fact, I was warmly ensconced in my friend’s house a mile away from the flood, watching a movie.

    So let me get this straight: I, a man who has somehow managed to survive for 43 years and can bench press 280 pounds, CAN’T get myself out of a potential flood area before a flood comes? REALLY?? I don’t follow the weather reports when there’s a hurricane coming? Right . . .

    Sure . . . she was real ‘worried’ about me. It was a HOOVERING attempt!

    Did she ‘mean’ to Hoover me? Probably not. But she DID IT. Was she being malicious? WHO CARES!! As a NON, all I wanted was NO CONTACT, and she wouldn’t give it to me.

    I feel some victim-blaming going on here.

  • NOYB NOYB

    Samantha (January 20, 2012 at 11:36 pm) wrote:

    ‘ As a person who had BPD and recovered from it, I feel like I would be able to offer a useful perspective on this issue from the other side. The person who commented: “I fully beleive that the person with BPD knows full well what they did was wrong AFTER the fact and will attempt to “cover up” what they did and WILL THINK and PLAN of ways to do that” is absolutely correct, at least from what I remember from my own experience. Those in the active throes of BPD will not tell you this, but Borderlines very frequently know well what they are doing with regard to manipulation after the initial emotionally intense firestorm has passed. In the aftermath of the lack of impulse control, it basically then becomes a game of “ cover up my bad parts to avoid unbearable shame and abandonment” […] So the manipulation which came after the fact was a plan to avoid having my “sins” exposed either to the other person or, most importantly, to myself. I think this is the true reason why those with BPD will say “I can’t stand it when people say those with BPD are manipulative. That is nothing but a myth” I used to say that too, but it was because I was in denial even to myself. To maintain any self-esteem at all, I needed to maintain the “all white” image of myself as a person who was not even remotely capable of doing that, so I would get very angry when anyone would make any statement which threatened this image. I needed to believe it was nothing but a horrible stereotype to avoid the reality of admitting to MYSELF that it was often quite true. From my personal experience, the true BPD problem is not the emotional regulation issues, but rather the severe ego/identity issues which cause so much use of hurtful defense mechanisms in relationships.’

    Yup. Read my post above.

  • Martin G

    Samantha, as someone new to all this behaviour, but trying to figure it out from my experiences with ex BPGF, I found your post absolutely brilliant and insightful to understand the thinking going on inside the BP at differing times. My question though is this : When I know I have been manipulated, projected and irrationally raged at by her, should I gently confront her that the behaviour was wrong and not founded ? (it has been downright cruel at times!) Or is it a case of just validating her thoughts and feelings ? It’s tough out here to know how to deal with the curious behaviours – As an example, we went from a relationship to just friends, but now she has tried everything to goad and bait me to push me away, and now finally asked me to stop contacting her. This seems orchestrated over a period of 4 months and she knows what buttons to push in me incl silent treatment etc. I’m simply trying to know how best to communicate knowing her troubles and what is the right thing to do. My gut says I should confront her gently with the bad behaviour but I often wonder what the ramifications would be for her – Or is it a mixture of both explaining the rude, unfounded behaviour and valdiating ? Thanks

  • Telecat

    Bon,

    I’m sorry, but your entire OP is a crock. I was victimized by a BPD in the past, and hoovering is DEFINITELY real.

    I had moved on, and was becoming involved with a woman who is my partner to this day. The day she heard about it, she exploded. I was getting tearful, pathetic VMs on my cell phone, begging me to come back to her. She had her friends call me and tell me I was awful because I was deserting her (this was about six months after she had dumped me). She created throw-away email addresses so she could bombard me with what amounted to spam, from her “friends,” none of whom I’d ever heard of, in an effort to hoover me back in.

    BPDs are the emotional equivalent of a toddler. They’ll discard a toy, not wanting to play with it any more, but if someone else wants to play with it, they go fuckin apeshit. It’s like “I don’t really want that any more, but YOU can’t have it!”

    I commend those of you who love someone enough to put up with BPD but if you’ll permit me a Dr Phil moment, what are you getting out of it? I gave up. I didin’t care I was abandoning her because she had abandoned me many times. It was abusive, toxic, and finally, intolerable.

    I don’t like the notion of making excuses for them. After a while, all excuses just piss me off. I’m not sorry I dumped the BPD. She brought it on herself.

  • Bon Dobbs

    Telecat,

    Yes, I’ll admit that being in a relationship with someone with BPD can be taxing and difficult. There’s no doubt about that. Yet, your story seems to better illustrate my point about hoovering than refute it. Your ex’s reaction was one that was entirely emotional – the result of emotional dysregulation. It was not a “planned”, manipulative act of hoovering as it is understood int he BPD support community. Hoovering is normally considered as preplanned and manipulative. I say in my post:

    Ok, back to hoovering. Why do I say it doesn’t exist? I say it doesn’t exist because a person with BPD has dysregulated emotions. When they feel kind, happy, desperate, anxious, sad, angry, etc. they actually FEEL that way. The feeling is overpowering. It is not a “designed” situation. It is not manipulation – which is exactly what hoovering implies. A person with BPD is too “in the moment” of their dysregulated emotions to plan ahead of time when to hoover. Granted, this action may be born out of a fear of abandonment. However, the feeling is real and not prearranged.

    Your ex’s reaction was entirely emotional. And I will agree with you that people with BPD are emotional toddlers.

    And BTW, I’m not making excuses for anyone. I am explaining the behavior, not excusing the behavior.

    As for what I’m getting out of it… that’s my business, not yours.

    Bon

  • Telecat

    I believe her behavior was beyond the pale, as is the behavior of most BPDs. I do agree with you in BPDs feel in the moment, but they also speak, make commitments, apologies, the list goes on and on and on, in the moment. But in fact, they do not MEAN one fucking thing they say. It’s a manipulative way to keep a partner IN LINE.

    I also believe their own fear of abandonment is made worse by the times they themselves, abandon those who try to love them. Cheat on them with the sleaziest assholes possible.

    I believe there is another term for BPD – Sociopath.

    Whether the Hoovering is deliberate or not, it exists, and it is evil. BPDs are evil. I would not wish a BPD on ANYONE, and anyone who sticks with one has to have damned near as many issues as the BPD themselves. Massive, massive codependence at least.

    You can explain until you’re blue in the face, but I think BPDs are a scourge to themselves and others, and the best way to deal with them is to NOT deal with them. Most cannot be “cured” or even “helped” because they always believe it’s someone else’s fault. It sure was with the one I was involved with and I will lift a glass of expensive liquor if I ever read her obituary.

  • Bon Dobbs

    I can see you’re angry about the way you were treated in the relationship with someone with BPD. While I agree that people with BPD can be very difficult people to deal with, I don’t think that avoiding them at all costs is the way to go. I say this because, while you can choose not to be with a partner with the disorder, it’s more difficult if you have a child with the disorder. I have seen with my own eyes how a person with BPD can be “helped” into behaving in a more effective manner.

  • Telecat

    I am only angry about it when I read about it, or am exposed to it. The scars BPDs leave on their victims are deep and long-lasting.

    But a friend recently got involved with one, who, cheated on him, abandoned him, and had him on the verge of suicide. I intervened because the friend is very dear to me, and I was able to extricate him from the situation. As you might imagine, that BPD is now trying to email me (I only gave her my spam-catcher) to harass me, and of course I just laugh at her. She showed up at a gig (I’m a musician) of mine two weeks ago and was so…disruptive, I had her thrown out.

    My friend changed his phone number and email address. He cut her out and actually had to get a restraining order to keep her away from him. He is healing. She has had six boyfriends in the eight weeks they have been apart.

    With regard to children, luckily, I was sterilized 10 years before I met the BPD, as I am childfree. My friend is also childfree, and also sterilized.

    My patience for that behavior is now zero. I am terribly sorry you’re stuck with one because of your child and I wish you the best. I won’t lie, my confidence that you can truly effect change in your wife is zero, but good luck man.

    Haven’t changed my mind but thanks for the responses.

  • Bon Dobbs

    I don’t usually approve such messages. I don;t like the equivocation between sociopath and BPD (or psychopath) because if you really look into the research, it doesn’t apply. I allowed your comments because of you passion. The sad thing is that there are thousands of such messages from people who don’t bother to scratch below the surface of the disorder. Instead, you are right, they are crazy – that’s it.

  • Telecat

    Well, I must tell you, there are thousands of posts like mine because the truth is, most people are not willing, or equipped to deal, long-term, with a borderline. I was not. I was *very* angry for a long time. Many victims of borderlines are angry because their own self-esteem has been polluted by the borderline. I was bewildered when mine went off, before we split up. I was thinking “WTF have I done to precipitate this,” and when I looked back, I understood what it was.

    My BPD was very into Society of Creative Anachronism (SCA) and role-playing. I was a musician, playing in a band and working a day job and wasn’t much interested in that particular hobby.

    One week, she went to an all-week event. She had promised she would not drink during the week. Essentially, she said she’d “be good.” She promised.

    Well one week turned into three, I learned from a mutual friend who was also into SCA, who thought I should know what was going on, she had been drinking to near blackout every night. She had had unprotected sex with at least 12 men that week, one of whom took her on an extra two-week tour of his bed. Much of this had been in the open, with others cheering them on. In one case, three guys did her one after the other. While others cheered.

    When she returned, I told her the friend had explained to me what was going on, and I was leaving, that I was not going to live with anyone who was going to abuse my trust, much less to that extent. She went up like a Roman candle, accusing me of “spying” on her. She claimed her friend was lying but when I confronted her with details of that particularly sordid example of her philandering, she tried to blame me, that I should “get into” SCA so it could be something we did together.

    I tried to explain my time and energy were directed elsewhere, I didn’t care about medieval role-playing, it just wasn’t my thing and between the band and work, I didn’t have time to take off every weekend to do that stuff. She claimed I loved my guitars more than I loved her. After her three-week debauched disappearance, she was right. It’s nothing short of a miracle she doesn’t have HIV or AIDS.

    Finally she begged me to stay and I relented. However, I would not touch her until a few weeks passed and she had an HIV test. This also made her very angry.

    Now understand, whenever I get involved with ANYONE, I tell them what I’m about, that music is my great passion and I put a lot of time/energy into it. I tell them I will not be a parent. I tell them if they can’t live with that, they should not get involved with me. She had said at the time she understood and was initially very supportive. But an incident at a gig (I caught her getting naked with a biker at a gig) ended the music support.

    She begged me not to leave her after that incident and since they had not “consummated,” and tearfully promised it wouldn’t happen again. But she never came to another gig.

    She was a habitual drunk, and after the SCA thing, she got drunk and raged at me fairly regularly, that it was music or her. I said “there’s the door,” (I held the lease) and she’d turn on a dime, tearfully apologizing, followed by an hour of puking in the toilet.

    Did I handle it all correctly? I don’t know. But after six months of this shit, I decided I was going to save myself, and if that meant abandoning her, tough titties. I could not deal with it any more.

    The explosion after I got involved with my current partner (of 12 years) was the final piece of evidence, proving to me I was right to have left her, I was right to have confronted her and I was right in rebuffing every attempt at contact.

    I suspect most people, confronted by that insanity, would react the way I did. I understand your situation is different because a child is involved, but absent that, can you blame anyone for choosing the path of self preservation? Can you blame someone for not wanting to delve beyond scratching the surface? Man, that’s a full-time job all by itself. It sure as shit isn’t what I signed up for.

    It’s none of my business, but there is a song by Delbert McClinton called “The Same Kind of Crazy As Me.” I mention this because my partner and I fit that description pretty well. In our case we have fun with it.

    OTOH, I hope that doesn’t apply to you.

  • Bon Dobbs

    What I am amazed and dismayed about (and this is not a comment toward you specifically, but to people in general) is that our educational system ignores a vital part of our education, even dismisses it as invalid. That is the emotional education that we all need. Borderlines are an extreme case of emotional dysregulation and a poor adaptation to the emotional “waves” that affect us all. Yet, few of us are taught to deal with emotional situations in an effective manner. Instead, we are taught to reject a very human experience… that of emotional influence in our lives. We are taught that the rational response is always “better” and more effective than the emotional. This is not true, not because one way of approaching things is better or worst, but because it is natural and human to have an emotional response. Everything from buying cereal to deciding who we love or do not has an emotional component. Still, we are taught to reject, rather than master, that part of our lives. This is why IMO there are thousands of messages like yours. If these people were autistic or had some other obvious mental defect that wasn’t judged as a character flaw, perhaps people would react differently. But, instead, people blame others, borderline or not, and get angry because people have little or none emotional training whatsoever, borderlines included. I have decided to develop a level of emotional agility that was missing from my life before I began this “quest”. The reality for me is that it has improved my life and my relationships with others, borderlines included. Rather than rage against the “content” (the specific situations in which I was “wronged”) I tend to focus on the emotional context of the situation. This makes me a better parent, partner and friend. I more more emotionally skillful than most. Not because I am better, but because I bothered to acquire the skills. That is the whole point of this site, my book and my work. People reject, rage against and justify their behavior as right or justified when they are lacking and unwilling to acquire the basic emotional skills that would make them a more effective person in life (dealing with borderlines or children or relationships in general). People assume that they are “due” something in life and that there’s nothing “wrong” with them. No, instead it’s the other person’s fault. In reality, we have thousands or hundreds of millions of people walking around with no emotional awareness or training or skills whatsoever. When one starts to acquire emotional skills a veil is lifted.

  • Telecat

    Dude, first of all, paragraphs. Live ’em, learn ’em, love ’em.

    I am more emotionally aware than most people I know. I have gone through years of therapy, from CBT to ACA groups. I have studied, to an extent, BPD, in the ensuing years.

    But what you’re ignoring is many people are not capable of dealing with borderlines. I was abused my both my parents, physically, emotionally, sexually. Most of the aforementioned therapy is related to how I grew up. I had well enough of that kind of shit from them.

    As I have gotten older (I’m pushing 60), I have trimmed the tree of the branches, both blood and not, of people who harsh my peace of mind. I have run out of patience for assholes, not matter the reason for their assholiness. I have run out of patience for one-way relationships (and let’s face it, relationships with BPDs are ALWAYS one way – we give, they take).

    I understand they are coming from a place of emotional dysregulation, I understand in many ways, it’s not their fault. I understand they are not capable of change themselves (because they don’t think anything is wrong with them). I do, indeed understand all that.

    But as I said, I didn’t sign up for that and call me selfish, but I don’t have enough in me to give that much. You can call it a failing and maybe it is, but there comes a point where I have to say “ENOUGH!”

    You completely ignore people’s instinct for self-preservation, you ignore people’s time, people’s need for peace of mind. I see what you’re doing as an act of extreme codependence and wonder about your own issues. But your belief people should not react “rationally” to borderlines is not fair, it’s not right, and frankly, IMO, it goes against human nature.

    People want to be happy. THAT is an emotional reaction. The emotional avalanche that is BPD precludes happiness for most people. They’re consumed with jobs and all the myriad of other activities that make up daily life. They don’t want to come home to a raging maelstrom of insanity, they want to come home, crack a beer, have some family time (whether that involves children or, in my case, pets) and try to wind down so they can get some sleep.

    Finally, you express your own sense of entitlement on behalf of borderlines, as if the people around them owe it to them to go to the extent you have in their codependence. Read the paragraph above. I am more emotionally aware than most and I would no more do what you’ve done than I’d welcome a raging case of hemorrhoids. I say again, for emphasis if nothing else, I didn’t sign up for this. What you’re advocating is a full time job without pay. Homey don’t play that.

    I applaud your effort, though I believe with regard to your BPD, ultimately it will fail. Borderlines are their own worse enemies and evantually they fall back on the same behaviors they always do.

    You see, I believe borderlines are beyond hope. We will have to agree to disagree.

  • Bon Dobbs

    It sounds as if you have been through a lot of heartache in your life. I applaud your efforts to cut ties with toxic people and to heal yourself.

    The thing is I have been doing what I’ve been doing for about 7 years now. I have found something that has helped ME immensely with my wife and daughter. When I discovered these skills and put them into use and, eventually, made them a part of who I am, my relationships improved. My daughter’s story is something of a miracle. A large part of that story is learning how to deal with her effectively. I know that she will not be approached many times in her life like this… life is just not like that. Yet, my attitude is that the family can be a place of validation and support. There’s few places that one is going to find that in life, so by providing it, I feel that there’s an openness between us.

    I’m not saying that what I provide will help everyone. It just helped me. And I felt since it helped me, I’d share it with others.

  • Michelle

    Man, I gotta say… I’ve been with someone with a personality disorder. I’m not sure which one, and I’m really not sure that it matters. They’re all just points along a gradient anyway. That’s why we have so many “diagnoses”… because when people are f*cked up, they each display it a little differently but they’re all still just f*cked up.

    That said, this was a fascinating exchange. You both make salient points. But in the end, from out here in the peanut gallery, I think Telecat is closer to healthy. Why? Because (at least by his report, which seems sincere) he’s been in a HEALTHY relationship for the last 12 years. Bon, you have not. It seems to me that his way of thinking and his actions based on that have served him much better than yours. I understand you’re in a relationship, with a child, with someone with BPD and I applaud you for your efforts. But for people who don’t have that reason to stay?

    You said that you usually don’t publish posts that equate BPDs with sociopathy. The trouble is, as I said above, they share many of the same traits because it’s a gradient. At what point does is someone a BPD rather than a sociopath, narcissist, or psychopath? Just because someone is diagnosed as one rather than the other doesn’t change the damage they do to other people. One diagnosis is not “better” than another.

  • This Person

    Here I am, trying to explain to someone that it’s wrong to abuse your partner. Like with my ex – explaining to him, carefully and patiently, that it was wrong to accelerate towards a red light at a crossroads then do an emergency stop, when he knew I am a highly anxious person. Apparently I was in the wrong there. I told myself I would have to change my behaviour, stand up to him more, poor man, poor man, blah blah blah… ENOUGH! You want to bitch about us Nons? Carry on. Cos I am gone.

  • dbtrocks

    As a DBT skills training psychotherapist, DBT patient, “recovered borderline,” AND survivor of BPD abuse, I just want to say:

    It can be BOTH.

    🙂

  • Sarah

    This is spot on. Nothing is pre-meditated, it really is the difference in our emotions and what we believe at that point.

  • David

    Great read as I lay here nursing hangover from self medicating after bpd ex gf latest hoover. They require a personality test to work at Target. One should be required before entering into a relationship !

  • edward desvernine

    Eddie

    I loved my borderline ex (she is female) more than anything in this world. I was with her 4 1/2 years. In the beginning it was great. Love at first site and my love only got stronger for her. But over time she treated myself and one of my sons so poorly. My poor son only wanted to love her. But she made him out to be an awful person. He is one of nicest kids.

    She ruined so many vacations w outbursts, jealousy of a little boy just looking for love. My wife died two years prior. She accused me of cheating on her, talking down to her, giving her back handed compliments. She would set me up to fail all the time. Ask me to help her w something or take her somewhere. When I offered to do so she said no another time. inevitably she would bring it up time and time again and berate me for not being there for her.

    She was also a functional alcoholic. I cannot tell you how often she stumbles out of restaraunts, I could never go to a party without having to carry her out. At night she would cry over past hurts and i was always there to comfort her. She kept in constant contact w an old boyfriend. I told her how it hurt me, she did not care. one week I was in heaven lspending time w her the next week she would always start a fight. I only wanted a loving caring relationship. She twisted my words, spoke bad about my family, even my dog. Lol

    The last year w her was so awful. I dreaded when phone rang, because she accused me if I did not answer right away, or if my son needed anything she would literally flip out. How sick am I. I still loved this women w all my heart. We shared eveyrthing in common she truly was my best friend and so fun to be around.

    When she left me I did not see it coming. She told me she would love me forever and wanted to marry me and I was her best friend. I was devastated. I was planning on marrying her. For the next six months was spoke almost everyday she wouldtell me we were working on getting back together. Little did I know she was seeing another man. By the eith month she told me she was living with another man and was engaged. I was broken beyond belief. I called and sent her messages night and day until I was blocked.

    She still calls me every week but when she calls I am hopeful she wants me back. But the only reason I know she calls is so I build up her huge ego and she berates me for things I did in past. I did not know I was dealing w a women w borderline personality until she was gone.. I would have been more patient w her if i would have known. I broke up w her at least 10 times but always the next day I would call. I would have to apologize because she never would. I just wanted love and peace and happiness. The man she is dating does not compare to me in anyway. I should have known from her past. All her exes were drug users alcohlics who treated her poorly and even stole from her. She said I let her down in relationship and did so many bad things to her. I tried my best to be a good loving man but nothing I ever did was appreciated. I even bought her dresses every other week because I thought she as beautiful. She said I was trying to change her. I know I am codependent on her and I still love her w my whole heart. How sad is thet

  • Raghuram

    Commenting on this point here that you made:

    “I say it doesn’t exist because a person with BPD has dysregulated emotions. When they feel kind, happy, desperate, anxious, sad, angry, etc. they actually FEEL that way. The feeling is overpowering. It is not a “designed” situation. It is not manipulation – which is exactly what hoovering implies. A person with BPD is too “in the moment” of their dysregulated emotions to plan ahead of time when to hoover. Granted, this action may be born out of a fear of abandonment. However, the feeling is real and not prearranged.”

    I’d like to suggest that the distinction is unnecessary, if not superfluous. It doesn’t matter whether they intended it or not – the manipulation of the move. The point is the effect does not change. Nor does the injury, especially when done over and over again.

    This distinction also offers a way out for someone – if they lack any sense of personal responsibility (towards how their behavior impacts others) – to NOT effect the change needed. Agreed, it’s hard and very painful. But that is not a burden someone else can be asked to join in support, if the willingness to help becomes an excuse for the hoover-er to escape the burden. Then the NON becomes an enabler.

    They need a parent. The NON hasn’t signed up to be one, for a lifetime.

    If they’re not “aware”, then it actually is a bigger problem. Because if they didn’t know what they were doing and weren’t seeing the effects of it and continue to claim that they don’t know, don’t understand, can’t see – then they cannot learn to do better.

    Someone intending to manipulate, is far easier to deal with – in this context. They’ll run this past you a couple of times. And when you latch on and hold them to account, they’ll either walk away/look for someone else or change the behavior, because it won’t fly with you any more. So, there’s someone accountable – whether they acknowledge/accpt it or not

    You may like to think this through a bit more. Because I’m a NON with a BPD partner, who got involved/enmeshed without having resolved the CPTSD following a two decade relationship with someone with severe narcissistic issues. I’m an idiot for having done so and have no excuses for myself. And that is something that I have to work myself through or out of.

    But it certainly does not absolve the BPD of the damage to others that their “dysregulation” does. As someone dealing with severe CPTSD, I get what dysregulation means and what it is like. But under no circumstances can I allow myself to offer that as an excuse or a get-out-of-jail-free card for hurting someone else. And if someone were to offer that – on my behalf – it would be shattering for any sense of personal pride or self-esteem I may have built up over years.

    If there’s no stable “self” in there, then there’s no person in there either. There’s a child. And as someone being an adult, you cannot have a relationship with a child. It’s not fair to them. And it sure as hell is not fair to you either. Unless you’re willing to become a parent for life.

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