As an ex-NON, I have to say that hoovering DOES in fact exist. In fact, I don’t think PWBPD have a right to say that it DOESN’T exist! If you’ve had it done to you, there’s no doubting it.

“Hoovering” generally implies maliciousness, premeditation, and that a pwBPD does it intentionally to injure the “non.”

No, sorry. This is a false statement. Maliciousness or premeditation do not have to be present for hoovering to take place. To say that ‘No malicsiousness/no premeditation = NO HOOVERING’ is an extremely subjective notion. A BPD can – and often does – hoover without maliciousness or premeditation. The term ‘Hoovering’ is not perjorative in and of itself. Its meaning depends on context.

Here’s an example of of Hoovering:

I broke it off with my ex BPD and told her that, in no uncertain terms, it was OVER and that I wanted NO CONTACT. A week later, during a hurricane, she called me frantically to ‘see if I was allright’ because there was severe flooding in my area.’ I was safe. In fact, I was warmly ensconced in my friend’s house a mile away from the flood, watching a movie.

So let me get this straight: I, a man who has somehow managed to survive for 43 years and can bench press 280 pounds, CAN’T get myself out of a potential flood area before a flood comes? REALLY?? I don’t follow the weather reports when there’s a hurricane coming? Right . . .

Sure . . . she was real ‘worried’ about me. It was a HOOVERING attempt!

Did she ‘mean’ to Hoover me? Probably not. But she DID IT. Was she being malicious? WHO CARES!! As a NON, all I wanted was NO CONTACT, and she wouldn’t give it to me.

I feel some victim-blaming going on here.

My first question…. is your ex girlfriend also your daughter’s mother? Everything you have written is how the BPD story goes with high functioning. Being cut off is not at all unusual, and having her show up again a year later could also happen, but unlikely. You won’t find much in the literature on HF BPD, because they function too well to end up in psychologist’s offices….. until they hit a big snag…… and the carefully constructed equilibriums fall apart. Sometimes it takes a lot, and all at once, that was certainly my case. And sometimes they hold it together forever. I used to say I’d love to wake up being someone else. And yet, I could see the world outside of myself was a fantastic place. The journey is to internalize that reality within. The reasons for disorder are also the reasons for the disconnect, and both can be addressed. As I assume your daughter is fairly young, her neuro pathways are not as entrenched as your ex girlfriend’s, and you could play a big role.

The like minded forums I spoke of will be up and running through a non-profit which is in the process of becoming incorporated, hopefully by March. We will be face to face in the Mid-Atlantic region, and on-line for out of towners, or the highly defended.

Send me your email through Bon’s contact, and I’ll be happy to keep you posted. Take heart, we set the bar at happiness and contentment, not mere management….. but the degree of success is always defined by how bad someone really and truthfully wants to remit disorder, beyond their fears of doing so.

I’m also happy to dialogue with you regarding any of the many questions you have regarding the modality of BPD.

I am highly skeptical of therapists (due to my own personal marriage with a “borderline” therapist,) but regardless, psychology and therapy are NOT a medical science! There are no blood tests or difinitive lab tests that will determine your “disorder.” Remember, it is merely categorgizing your behavior, analyzing your patterns,and comparing that to their diagnostic manual!

These people are not “Gods!” They are merely car mechanics in nicer clothes!!

It’s the equivalence of buying a repair manual for your car. “This is what it’s doing,” (troubleshooting,), this is the possible problem (diagnosis,) and this is how you correct the problem (treatment.)

Psychology and therapy are mere speculation…….

Their reasoning and justification are circular, to say the least! JUNK SCIENCE!!

I am familiar with the principles in ACIM’s, as well as the volumes I’ve read in religion and philosophy over the years. I’ve been sent copies of Tolle, Watchman Nee, Jung, etc ….. and been told by a PhD psychotherapist who is also a high functioning BPD….. that all the real questions are laid out by Ernest Becker in The Denial of Death. Oyi. Those and many more have all been very instructive in their own ways, even if serving to display the elaborate lengths the human mind will travel to deny a simple truth; hidden by the guise of complex reasoning. It seems that our wonderfully complex pre-frontal cortex has a very rough time accepting simplicity, for the very reason that we can create complex rationalizations that seem to make so much sense. Of course, how much sense may have nothing to do with what the truth is. In other words, we do it because we can, and it makes us feel good in the moment; or better about ourselves generally. The history of science, medicine, politics and religion is a document of this very concept in action, killing or destroying the wellbeing of untold numbers in the process. All, for very ‘good’ reasons.

So, my journey has been to disseminate the large and small particles of ‘truth,’ in each bit of research and writing on not only disorder, but a much broader context of human behavior ….. and reality test it against my own disordered experience with a BP for many years before resolution, and a very peaceful and thoughtfully objective experience since.

Noticing defensive postures is a very important tool, as you know. Realizing there are other choices, and ‘choosing again’ is what DBT is all about….. which always needs to happen. And as you’ve already written, knowing what the modalities were of some of the original wounding, are other important pieces of the puzzle. But knowing how these pieces have fit together to form the neurological spider web of disorder, and deconstructing them though an awareness of how their everyday manifestations effect your emotions through perceptual ‘unrealities’ is the foundation necessary to remit disordered thinking…… and begin to build the neuro pathways of living in an ordered mind, that responds to reality as it is.

I will keep you posted on the start date for the like minded forums…… and will look forward to your participation. Thank you for your patience with the developmental process. We’ve wanted to take our time, as the hope of real happiness and living without self perpetuating anxiety is not to be suggested lightly to those who have little experience with either.

If you want to send me your email through Bon and his contact button above, I can keep you directly informed.

Another reason BPD has a worse stigma attached is because of a sad but unfortunate truth: many of those diagnosed with BPD have treated those close to them pretty horribly, and done so pretty consistently. And often in ways–for for supposed “reasons”–that don’t make a lot of sense.

Whether you think it’s fair or not, it’s a plan fact that this kind of thing just adds to the stigma.

Having a diagnosed BPD in my family, I’m not so quick to call them “psycho” or spew out the kind of hate you saw in the comment above.

But having been close to more than one BPD, and knowing others who have had the same experiences, it seems to be a pretty common phenomenon that the closer you are to someone with the diagnosis, the more likely you are to be treated in a pretty rotten way.

Like it or not, this is a big reason for the stigma. I would gamble to say it’s probably the MAJOR reason.

And when people start using their diagnosis as the “reason” they treat others badly, rightly or wrongly, it tends to just fan the flame (just imagine all of these statements making up a huge campaign of micro public relations incidents; it’s what they basically are).

It amazes me how this website, devoted to questioning the very existence of a high functioning borderline, has become a definition of the fact. Your very clear vision of the difference between the facts of your life, and your inner experience of them, is the recognition of the way disorder filters the reality of not only your memory, but your sensory present. A low functioning BPD is so preoccupied with primitive defensive mechanisms, they cannot begin to approach that level of awareness.

I read you have made the rounds of various therapists and see that you have no need to learn dialectical behavioral skills….. you already have them. But what you do need to learn is a dialectical dialogue with your own mind, where you can reveal to yourself that your perceptions are sabotaging your ability to experience reality as it is; the facts of your life.

Having been through this many times with very high functioning BPDs, the first thing you must realize is that disorder is a deceit….. which then has a vested interest in keeping the truth of defensive postures deeply hidden, to be effective. That was the way your young sensitive mind figured out how to survive. Unfortunately, the patterns of thought designed for childhood survival, translate into disordered thinking and behavior as an adult. So the journey, when you are ready to put the pieces together, is to first understand the logic of cause and effect…… and the turning point to remitting disorder is to learn how to apply what you know to what you feel; becoming disciplined in how to do that, 24/7…… until the new neuro pathways of order become the knowing choice.

It sounds to me like you are ready to do the real work, and would be a determined student to claim a happy life experience. Let me know if you are interested in joining a number of like minded persons. A non profit is about to be funded to do this work….. which will have an on-line, confidential presence for those who would like to, or logistically must, participate through that modality.

I would agree with you. In my polls, I have found that about 75% of self-identified people with BPD have attempted suicide, had substance abuse issues and engaged in self-injury. I think this represents that vast majority of people with BPD, despite all the talk of high-functioning (which I believe is a myth, because it depends on the context) violent borderlines. The ICD provides a pretty clear view on the “types” with IMO the vast majority failing in the second type who can be a danger to themselves more than other people. Thanks for the comment!

Bon

I have been studying the Course in Miracles for about a year now, feeling drawn to its view and was hoping the study would help. I had some exposure in the 1980s to it but abandoned it as it seemed that the goal was to lose ones individuality. This is actually the goal, but then, it was too frightening for me, was too much. Now I understand it a bit differently. The Course does help, but again, the going is slow and I feel I need more help than a weekly book discussion class where personal discussions are not appropriate. Reading things on the Internet and here about BPD have been helpful. I do have insurance but have not been successful in working with the “plan” psycologists. The two that I have seen seem to want to encourage a sense of victimhood as a way to forgive the self, but that does not jive with the Course in Miracles, so I end up confused. It is so wierd, but my outer life as viewed by others would seem to be successful. I am educated and got very high grades, have a good job, a long term marriage with a partner who loves me, but inside I am chronically unhappy, have few intimate friends, distrust people, feel cynical, excluded and judged. This ends up being a self-fulfilling type of thing, and I do actually get rejected, which hurts. What I began to notice, however, is that the objective facts of my life do not match the subjective inner experience. So I know something is wrong. Getting the right kind of help has been so hard. It helps to know I am not alone. Thank you. I will keep trying to find the right kind of help.

Yes, it only works on iPhones/iPads/iPod touches. It won’t run on anything else right now.

It seems that being single, with no hope of ever having a stable, fulfilling relationship, is always the default position. If only history is considered, I would agree. Unfortunately for those who are misinformed and ignorant of the possibilities, you can’t see that you don’t know what you don’t know.

The guilt and self loathing that drives you to prove your self worth, without ever attaining it, is a huge deceit. You actually are all the wonderful things you have done, you just don’t feel like it. So, if the facts are what they are, but you don’t feel they are true, your emotions are lying to you.

So then, the real question is, why don’t your feelings match up with your reality? The journey to that answer is the one thats been waiting for you. You can’t hide from yourself, so why not confront what needs to be confronted?

At any age, there’s lots of life and love out there. Yeah, I know, but its not available to you, right? Wrong. Its all available when you actively confront and deal effectively with disordered neuro pathways. They won’t go anywhere on their own. But, they will change if you want to and make the effort.

Needless to say, manipulation, and control were only parts of her aresenal. Luckily I got out,and my life is recovering. While I understand that the BPD is “suffering” inside, there has to be a recovery program or methods for people who have loved a BPD. The fact that she is a therapist and is aware that she is BPD, is completely socially, ethically, and morally wrong! How could one even begin to “report” her to the state without appearing as a “disgruntled” ex???

I can do this because of guilt and self-loathing. I can’t kill myself until my parents die. Having people think I’m good makes me feel better about myself. I know what I need to do and I hate myself if I don’t…even when I need several drinks just to be able to look someone in the eye.

False. What they are feeling is their fear of abandonment, isolation, and of being alone. Paralyzed by the fear, and triggered by events to which they cannot recognize a direct participation, whether implicitly, or explicitly, their motivating factor is to assuage their distorted, dysregulated emotions – this…is the primary emotion, and the motivating element that has precipitated their behavior – the hoovering.

What results are disingenuous statements that do not procure any insight into the behavior that lead up to such circumstances, let alone the cognitive distortions that precipitated said behavior. It is a mere mask.

This is what distinguishes the difference between an individual who is capable of recognizing their behavior, and the consideration of those they are in communication with, and that of the pathological personality, when said individuals seek to mend any issues within any given interpersonal relation they seek to preserve.

‘ Well, then you might ask me: What does this person (with BPD) actually believe about me? Are they telling the truth when they “hoover” me into sex (or something else)? My answer: they are telling the truth in both situations. The truth is what they feel at any given time. It is not about you. It is about their feelings and their inability to self-soothe. ‘

What? What they feel at any given time? Their actions are based upon concretized, ego-syntonic defense mechanisms, coupled with an inability to recognize their behavior, and, the thoughts that lead up to them.

That said, with regards to how they ‘feel’:

Perceptions lead to thoughts,
Thoughts lead to emotions (feelings),
Emotions lead to behavior.

Triggers are pre-supported by distorted perceptions and how they are received, not how they ‘feel’. If their perceptions are cause for concern, their ‘feelings’ must be reviewed concurrently. This is precluded by core wounds that must be uncovered.

That said, once their fear of abandonment is triggered, and the ‘hoovering’ begins, a list of blanket statements begin to emerge – statements which have been conscientiously cataloged for recital. statements which have been otherwise absent from the relationship, not only in conversation, but especially in spirit. They do not see the other individual – they are an object – nor do they recognize virtues of their articulation. They parrot their list, and seek for acclamations as a result of them. If the other individual accepts their statements, it reinforces and supports the disordered ego-syntonic state, along with the narcissism it relies upon. It is their distorted fears, that compel them to act, not the recognition, or the consideration for, or of the individual.

I love this site

I’ll look forward to hearing from you…..

Markos

I was watching the videos of Anthony sitting in an interrogation room, knowing she was filmed, yet remaining perfectly calm. What most people might not notice is mannerisms she had because she was excruciatingly bored. Picking her fingernails, brushing her legs, touching her wrists and sleeves, patting her hair, cleaning glasses, standing and fixing her shirt, shaking her leg, etc. If her hair had been blonde, I’d have thought I was looking at a video of my sister in her sober moments.

While it’s not indicative of much scientifically, it’s one of many similarities to my sister. She really does need to seek psychiatric attention, in my humble opinion.